Best Launcher for Sniping?

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Big Boss
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Best Launcher for Sniping?

Post by Big Boss » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:38 pm

I'm looking for a sniper-friendly water weapon, and since WBL's have the longest range, I figured I'd ask here. Therefore, if I'm wrong about that and should be looking somewhere else, don't bother reading the rest of this and correct me! ^.^

I've taken a look at AquaLab's plans, and have heard about the monstrousness that is the Douchenator. I've heard complaints about Aqualabs launcher, but they seem like the typical problems that plague every WBL. That is, I've never really seen anything that compares these guns in terms of sniping.

Apart from what model to base mine off of, what changes do you think I should make to maximize their effectiveness in sniping, apart from anything else I should take into account.

Also, I know that the maximum ranges for these things are taken from a 45 degree angle, but what should I expect when firing on a beeline? What I really mean, is; are they effective enough shooting in straight lines for a scope of any sort to be useful, or will I always be firing at an angle if I want any range at all?

I think that's all there is to ask, so if you can answer any of my questions... thanks!

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:31 pm

Build a spud gun and use either a solenoid valve or an exhaust valve. Google will provide you with more than enough information on both.

The Douchenator is really designed more to be easy to build than anything else. Performance-wise you'll find much better performance elsewhere, especially given that they use a slow opening valve. I'd also like to see how practical using a bike pump is on the field, but that's another story (hint: go for an air backpack!). I don't really know what the hype about the Douchenator really is about because in reality it just rehashes stuff people have done for years before. Check out our site's "Havoc" launcher for nearly the same exact design, and I'm sure that's not the first incarnation either.

AquaLab's launcher really is only a spudgun. He's done a lot of interesting stuff, but sadly all he put on his website was his water balloon launcher...

Now, if you really do need the extra distance, go with the best design around. However, judge what you need carefully because a 200 - 300 foot shooting cannon still is not bad. A "weaker" cannon also would be much safer and be easier on your arms (from pumping) or air supply. I would focus on making an air gun that is usable more than anything else - distance-wise you're already there. ;)

To answer your question about directly aiming, you shouldn't have much of a problem. If you find that you do at greater distances, angle your gun up slightly.

I've built two air cannons suitable to shoot water balloons before. One was disappointing (200 feet of distance), while the other was unnecessarily large and consequently has obnoxious performance (>500 feet at only 60 PSI, and only with a spring loaded ball valve because I was poor). Neither cannon I would ever point at a person.

Big Boss
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Post by Big Boss » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:54 pm

All right, seeing how the Douchenator may seem more popular "just because," and since I had already had a feeling that the ball valve may not have been the best idea, I'll stick with AquaLab's plans as a base. But I'll try not to commit myself to anything yet, I'm buying PVC today, but I'll try not to get anything too expensive that can only be used in one particular model.

And I've also had reservations about that bike pump. Even AquaLabs designer says something along the lines of: "Fire your gun, then run. Get far enough away that you can find time to pump your launcher back up."
So, that air backpack may be of some use. Mind pointing me to some info on that?

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:59 pm

There's no information on the air backpack as of yet, which is why I suggested it. You can take a large air tank and mount it on a frame backpack as I will be doing in a new water gun of mine. You also can design one from PVC or whatever pipe is available. A pressure regulator may or may not be necessary. The simplest design has no regulator: you have a small valve that you will disengage when the pressure of the chamber reaches the point you want.

Let me know if you'd like some help or more information on the air backpack because I'm sure I could provide some. ;)

Big Boss
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Post by Big Boss » Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:05 pm

Ahh, I see, something to refill the pressure chamber; not replace it. An idea I had to increase capacity consisted of having to tote around multiple pressure chambers, but depending on what kind of tank I can find for the the backpack, it (the backpack) may prove to be much more efficient.

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DX
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Post by DX » Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:08 pm

The Douchenator was designed for battle practicality, not sheer power, nor sheer range, nor to have the fastest valve. It has to be able to get wet, and solenoids have electrical wiring that can't get wet. We have fought in pouring rain before, so better a slow, but manual, valve than a fast, electronic based one that would have been fried already.

On the hardcore field of battle, the difference in opening time makes no difference whatsoever, and ranges over 500ft don't either. It is not quite fair to compare it to other launchers built just for sheer power, for that is not what the Douchenator is meant for. Bike pumps work fine, as long as the artillery has covering fire, which is always present.

The Havoc is not the same at all, the Havoc is HUGE and would not fare well in the fast paced action of our wars. To be effective, our artillery has to be small and light and compact and manual and have the best power-size ratio possible.

So I really don't understand what you're trying to prove. That something designed to fill a niche is bad because there are more powerful things designed for a different purpose? A huge, insane launcher would ironically be swept from the field, simply because it isn't fast and mobile. Like in real war, try throwing big tanks in a jungle fight and see what happens.

Everyone goes for the most powerful thing they can, like n00bs flocking to their 2000/Monster XL , but if you plan on using something designed for power in a fight in a non-open area, forget about it.

Like with normal water guns, there is no such thing as "the best design around." Different launchers are optimized for different uses, know that before choosing which you would like to make or would rather scratch. If you want the most power you can possibly get, obviously forget the Douchenator. But if you want battle practicality, there is no rival other than a small version of something else. Go for the intended use, NOT the "paper stats." Otherwise, you will be disappointed.

EDIT: Did not see other posts. Air backpacks probably would be much, much faster, although you need not run away and pump in the rear with a bike pump. Outdated tactics... But if you can make an air backpack, that sounds a lot better than taking half a minute to pump and prep for the next shot.
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Big Boss
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Post by Big Boss » Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:36 pm

Yeah, Duxburian's right in that I don't know what I'm looking for; it's my first time even having to deal with a water balloon launcher- I'll be the first to use one in any battles around here, so I can't really get a grip on their ranges, either.

I would take a balance between simplicty-of-use and performance if I could, but as it stande the only existing instructions do either one or the other, and I'm far to green to design my own without having ever used one. So I'm looking for the highest performance; figuring that mine will probably perform at a lower rate than those shown, and I don't want to end up with insufficient power.

And about repumping, I probably won't make a pack for this gun: It's an Assassination-type round, if I hit my mark the first shot, I may not have to reload for the duration of the round. Even so, I'll be a lone wolf, and won't have any backup.

After we get back into more battle-like situations, I may have to change my strategy and my gun, but as for now, maybe that sheds a little more light on what kind of weapon I need.

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DX
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Post by DX » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:49 pm

I would consider the air backpack. Cause if you miss that first shot, which is very likely with launchers, then you are/might be screwed unless you can get it pressurized again, quickly. Rate of Fire with bike pumps is indeed slow, 2-3 rounds a minute, usually 2 or even just 1 if the user is not experienced.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:43 pm

First of all, understand that sniping is impossible with water weapons--let alone WBLs. I've said this many times before, but here I go again: due to a projectile that is easily affected by external forces, one cannot guarantee that the target will be hit. In fact, due to the steep arch of the trajectory and human inaccuracy itself, chances are that your aim will be off in the first place.

However, for once, I'm going to talk about the strengths of WBLs. You might not have heard of artillery being used for sniping (and for good reason, too), but artillery can still be effective if used properly. Having one's camp bombarded can be quite demoralizing, and it is particularly effective before storming the area. Because there's always a chance that you could get hit, you would look for cover and dodge--and the WBL user could anticipate your movements.

My recommendation, especially assuming that you're not trying to snipe, is to use the Douchenator. I can see exactly what Duxburian means by it being battle practical--mainly because it's small enough to be carried around, and requires fewer "pumps." Its range is far greater than that of any soaker, and if you are shooting from even further away with a larger WBL, then your aim will be terrible and you can't charge immediately. You could even do a good electrical solenoid setup if you wanted to--as long as you use a ton of electrical and duct tape to cover up your handiwork. Remember, all WBLs are at least somewhat related, so your creation will probably be unique and may contain technology from various WBL designs.

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wetmonkey442
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Post by wetmonkey442 » Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:40 pm

How many times must I say this, just modify the sprinkler valve. Remove the solenoid, and you get a valve that is not only water-proof, but opens faster than before. A good 1 1/2" sprinkler valve will give you a much greater faster flow of air, and thus better performance, than any ball valve. Not to mention, they're easier to open.

As far as sniping goes, it is not impossible. SilentGuy, have you used a water balloon launcher before? It is really hard to hit a target but far from impossible. Wind does not affect the trajectory of the round nearly as much as most people think, and if you're able to hit a person from a hundred feet away, that is sniping because it's more than twice the range of a normal water gun. Don't ever try to use a water balloon launcher effectively at full power, it won't work. However with a clear line of fire, and winds less than 15 mph, you should be able to hit pretty near a person. Remember, you don't have to hit a person directly to "kill" them. In a 1HK battle, a water balloon that hits on the ground near the person will be just as effective, soaking their legs.

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DX
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Post by DX » Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:05 pm

Remember, you don't have to hit a person directly to "kill" them. In a 1HK battle, a water balloon that hits on the ground near the person will be just as effective, soaking their legs.
Well, depending on local rules. For me, splatter damage would only count if it made it onto the shirt, and there would have to be enough of it.

Wind has little effect on the balloon. It is mainly the angle you aim with and whether or not trees are present. Aim makes the difference between a close shot and a laughable one.

Water balloon launchers are the closest thing to sniping, since you can shoot long range from a hidden position.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:46 pm

I'll back down now, but I suppose this has to do with our interpretations of "sniping." I consider sniping to be the type where you use a scope at extreme distances and from a hidden location to kill one person; on the other hand, I do consider this to be "artillery," because artillery in real life involves long-distance bombardment with a projectile that does splash damage and that follows a relatively arching trajectory.

However, I do respect your definitions, which I believe to mean killing somebody from further away from normal. You're right, I've never used a WBL before, so I'll just take your word for it. Sorry about the confusion.

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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:29 pm

Air tanks work best when regulated down into the chamber. That way you get consistent results.

The perfect angle is never 45 degrees - it's usually slightly below it. I do know, because I've written a full ballistics spreadsheet. (still being improved - not that it isn't good enough.) And winds will have a fairly major effect.

As an aside about sniper launchers:

It's been a while since I gave an update on the Cerberus situation.

I'm finalising the design. I've seriously enhanced it with a new valve design, (while stripping out large amounts of electronics) so that it has spectacular performance, with 225 mph balloons at 70 psi. At 120 psi, speeds are up to nearly 300 mph (not that I'd use that except at extreme ranges [more than 100 yards] {and probably not even then})

I'm now looking at it being a Pneumatic/Hybrid fusion (not that hybrid can shoot water-balloons. It's going to be multi-purpose)

The design now has elements of the SA80 automatic (the main weapon of the British army) rifle and in theory could go full-auto. With an on-board pressure top-up tank, I could get 60 rounds off in less than a minute.

The amusing thing is that normally WBLs have problems with reloading. With 20 round magazine, so I won't be running out at a critical point. (I pity the person who tries to rush it.)
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Big Boss
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Post by Big Boss » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:04 pm

Thats immensely impressive. What kind of range do you get with that?

Now, I doubt you're going to release this model anytime soon, and... I by no means need that much power, but you obviously know what you're doing. So is there any specific advice you can give that hasn't been mentioned, or something you'd like to stress? Or perhaps a new design element you've implemented that you've found to be absolutely indespensable?

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Post by guerrilla91 » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:14 pm

I would imagine he uses a piston valve design, but i could be wrong. On the topic of water balloon snipers, I would not use a water balloon launcher for sniping. I would only use mine for indirect fire on a base or group of enemies, much like a mortar. It is simply much too hard to hit someone, and getting slammed by a water balloon fired directly at ou hurts a lot more than getting hit by a water balloon lobbed in the air.

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