CPS 2000s and Monster XLs

General water gun discussion.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Sun May 21, 2006 2:32 am

However, given $10 per hour and a surplus of $150 for making one's own gun, you'll have 15 hours to spare--and you can do other things while you wait for the glue to set. I don't think this could take that long, except for cutting the PVC--I'm a perfectionist, so I'll never be happy with the cuts. However, price-wise, homemades > CPS 2000/MXLs, so it all boils down to how confident one is and how much they actually want to build a homemade. I know I want to build a homemade anyway...

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DX
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Post by DX » Sun May 21, 2006 2:37 am

you'll have 15 hours to spare--and you can do other things while you wait for the glue to set
Like sleeping...I thought everybody lets the glue dry overnight? That's the best way to deal with the long drying process.

You can save time by stocking up on certain parts in advance. If you know you will build future homemades, why not get some of those parts now rather than later? Especially if they are available only at a far-off store or are dirt cheap at the moment. Homemade parts are subject to severe changes in price and you can tell the strength of the economy just by browsing the PVC section.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Sun May 21, 2006 2:41 am

Duxburian wrote:You can save time by stocking up on certain parts in advance. If you know you will build future homemades, why not get some of those parts now rather than later? Especially if they are available only at a far-off store or are dirt cheap at the moment. Homemade parts are subject to severe changes in price and you can tell the strength of the economy just by browsing the PVC section.
Are the price fluctuations modeled in larger stores such as Lowes, or are they only present in the local (or chain, for that matter) plumbing shops? I mean, I'll be lucky to be able to go to a place that sells PVC, even if it's local, only every few months--and I'll probably just buy my PCgH stuff when I go next. But I guess it could be interesting to see the price change...

Also, do you ever buy PVC directly from McMaster-Carr? It seems like you might as well if you're getting LRT or check valves, and they might even have one of those free shipping deals.

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Post by CRAZY Homemade » Sun May 21, 2006 3:13 am

I haven't seen much price fluctuation lately, however, the price of every thing has gone up due to the price of crude oil and Hurricane Katrina (yes, all of the building supplies are still needed).
I would not buy it there unless it is a specialty piece, stuff there is more expensive and shipping is a killer. To tell you the truth, Abs piping from Home DePot and Lowes is very sufficient in building the soaker's PC. I mean 15 dollars for 10 foot of 4 inch diameter pipes!
You wonder why I am called Crazy Homemade...

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Post by Silence » Sun May 21, 2006 3:21 am

ABS tubing isn't going to work optimally in soakers. Sure it's cheaper, but it's probably even worse than non-pressure rated PVC if you want it to contain pressure--it's just meant to contain non-pressurized water and transport it between specific locations.

I'm not sure Hurricane Katrina has that important effects, especially on the East Coast/Northeast. However, it is possible...though I'm still going with the rising gas prices.

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Post by DX » Sun May 21, 2006 3:38 am

Building materials fluctuate with the economy. Strong economy = high prices, or at least around here. It can mean the difference between a $3 ball valve and a $10 one. Same exact valve, different economic conditions. Gas has little if anything to do with DIY stuff, except that rising gas prices hurt the economy, and if anything, should lower PVC prices.
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Post by isoaker_com » Sun May 21, 2006 3:42 pm

It doesn't take too much skill; you just need to be able to read the blueprints and documentation for these homemades and read the usage instructions provided with each product that you'll use (primer/hot glue gun, saw, etc.).

That's one of the fallacies that I felt Peter_MJ's posts did a good job at trying to point out. Sure, for those more mechanically/building inclined, the skill set needed for building a homemade doesn't seem like much. However, there is a vast number out there who can't use a saw properly or who would get lost looking at blueprints. I still recall doing some woodworking projects back in grade-school/high-school and seeing how perhaps over half the class couldn't follow a stencil properly, some being really challenged at trying to understand how the parts of a little bookshelf fit together in the final product. I consider DNA gene manipulation and protein expression a very simple skill to learn, but that doesn't mean the majority of the population would agree with that.

That said, for those wanting to learn, they have already overcome the initial barrier to learning new skills. However, for average-jill/joe who just wants to use a powerful water gun, she/he is not necessarily wanting to gain the skills and spend the time building one, she/he just wants the simplest way to obtain a good-powered soaker without the additional effort. To some, money still may be simpler to obtain than successfully building a homemade/modded soaker.

In an analogy, why are fast-food chains so popular when it can cost less to buy and cook your own meals which would be so much healthier? Cooking isn't hard to do, either (or is it?)

I should note that I'm not trying to put homemade/modded soakers in a bad light. However, I'm just trying to clear away certain misconceptions. Those who strive to push the limits on what water blasters can do, I definitely respect that a lot. Thinking that 'anyone' could/should do it as well is being a little too optimistic about the skills, time, and desires of the rest of the populace.

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Post by Silence » Sun May 21, 2006 3:57 pm

Okay, I will hypothetically assume that the average person cannot build a homemade soaker. That said, it would still be better to pay somebody else to build a homemade soaker; I might even do so for less than $25-50, not including the cost of the materials. At some point, if the tentative SSC store starts to build homemades (which I don't support), then this would become much easier. Even the possible store kits would make building homemades vastly easier and more accessible by the masses.

Fast food isn't the best analogy; for some reason, there are people who will only eat at McDonald's because of the food's taste. This could be compared to the looks of commercial soakers, but as I said earlier, people like Baghead might be able to vastly improve the looks of the homemade soakers. Baghead's Nerf paintjobs > commercial Nerf paintjobs, case closed.

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Post by isoaker_com » Sun May 21, 2006 4:17 pm

That said, it would still be better to pay somebody else to build a homemade soaker; I might even do so for less than $25-50, not including the cost of the materials. At some point, if the tentative SSC store starts to build homemades (which I don't support), then this would become much easier. Even the possible store kits would make building homemades vastly easier and more accessible by the masses.
There are those who would likely be willing to pay someone else to build a soaker for them. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe this has already happened in a few cases. The problem is that while the homebuilder could go for selling his/her creations for a profit, there is a limit on how many could be manufactured, especially if larger orders come in. If someone wanted 50 APHs (which really isn't that many soakers), how long would that take to build and how much would it cost to ship them to the buyer?
Fast food isn't the best analogy; for some reason, there are people who will only eat at McDonald's because of the food's taste. This could be compared to the looks of commercial soakers, but as I said earlier, people like Baghead might be able to vastly improve the looks of the homemade soakers. Baghead's Nerf paintjobs > commercial Nerf paintjobs, case closed.
The problem with these statements is that you've gone from a general statement to a specific scenario regarding what Baghead can do. Baghead might be able to make some kickass paintjobs, but he, too, is limited in terms of how many people he can cater to, not to mention adding on an additional cost. I definitely don't see a 'case closed' in this case. For sake of argument, if we assume Baghead can find fellow workers and start catering to more clients, it'd be similar to an upstart, healthier food chain attempting to grab more of the market share in the fast-food business. Presently, the fast-food analogy still works here.

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Post by Silence » Sun May 21, 2006 4:20 pm

50 APHs are possible to complete, especially if the end user's friend builds them as well as the SSC store's "staff." I expect the friends to be much more effective than the staff because of the production requirements.

I was just pointing out the taste was just about the only reason people go for fast food--not speed or anything. While you do have a point, it's not the best analogy. If you're going to build a homemade, you might as well paint it.

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Post by isoaker_com » Sun May 21, 2006 6:01 pm

I was just pointing out the taste was just about the only reason people go for fast food--not speed or anything.
Taste? For those who can cook, they can make much tastier things than any fast-food chain can push. People eat fast food for a variety of reasons, but it's more likely due to simplicity/no-brainer to order a combo than it is to either go to a higher-end restaurant or cook food for oneself. If you want to cook, you can always cook something to taste like fast-food, though I'm not sure anyone would really want to do that. :P

As in homemade building, people could build soakers similar in power and features to stock soakers. However, that seems rather against the point of building a homemade altogether. With homemades, one can build devices that by-far outperform anything in the retail store. However, that takes time/energy that most wouldn't want to expend since they'd rather be doing something else with their time.

Building your own soaker is akin to cooking one's own meals, making one's own clothing, building one's own furniture, etc. For those willing to do-it-themselves, with time and energy, they can make things better than can be bought anywhere else, particularly since things can be tailor-made to specific needs. The most important thing that is being sacrificed, though, is time. For those who enjoy it, it is undoubtedly time-well-spent. However, different people put priorities on what to spend their time on. There just isn't enough time for someone to find the time to do everything they want to without sacrificing something else.

Now in terms of time, I think I've spent too much time on trying to explain the value of time. Thankfully, for me, it's lunchtime so I've not used up time to do other things I want/need to do. :P

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Post by Silence » Sun May 21, 2006 6:15 pm

I'm not saying I like fast food--you don't see too many...well, "refined"...people at fast food places, do you?

Yes, DIY is usually done just for fun, but I wouldn't say it's done to get a better product. The problem is that Hasbro hasn't been giving us what we want (unlike Larami, who catered to everybody), and we're "fighting back" by building better soakers. My point is, if you really want that type of power from a soaker, you should be building one yourself instead of paying extra to get junk from the last millenium. Serious water warriors will build instead of buy, and those who aren't serious shouldn't want a CPS 2000 or a MXL anyway--and that's my answer to this topic.

That should also explain the priorities thing--if you want a good soaker, then you really want it, but if you don't care, then that shows too.

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Post by isoaker_com » Sun May 21, 2006 7:13 pm

I'm not saying I like fast food--you don't see too many...well, "refined"...people at fast food places, do you?
Um, 'refined' or not, what percentage of the population eats out at fast food places as opposed to making their own food? Are those who choose fast-food 'unrefined'? Does this also mean that those who cook their own meals are more 'refined'?
Yes, DIY is usually done just for fun, but I wouldn't say it's done to get a better product. The problem is that Hasbro hasn't been giving us what we want (unlike Larami, who catered to everybody), and we're "fighting back" by building better soakers.
These statements are contradictory. In addition, Larami did NOT cater to everybody since people have been modding and/or building their soakers even back in the days of the XP150/XP95s. Home-made builders have been experimenting with things, trying to push limits when the CPS2000 was available in retail. While having fun is definitely one part of what homemade builders build, I don't see homemade builders just wanting to remake a CPS2000-class blaster. Homemade builders are striving for more.
My point is, if you really want that type of power from a soaker, you should be building one yourself instead of paying extra to get junk from the last millenium. Serious water warriors will build instead of buy, and those who aren't serious shouldn't want a CPS 2000 or a Monster XL anyway--and that's my answer to this topic.
Didn't you just say earlier that Larami catered to everyone? If that's the case, why would you call soakers like the CPS2000 'junk from the last millenium'? In terms of what someone wants, no one is in the position to dictate what another should want or not want. 'Want' is a personal thing. You can discuss advantages and disadvantages of various choices, but to attempt to suppress another person's wants is rather unrealistic and, in a sense, rather arrogant.
That should also explain the priorities thing--if you want a good soaker, then you really want it, but if you don't care, then that shows too.
This actual opens up the question of 'what makes a soaker good in the first place?' Some feel that the CPS2000 is their ideal soaker and, as they really want it, are willing to lay down >$300 on eBay to get it. Others feel they can build their own much better for less monetary cost and thus do so. Both options are valid since each caters to a particular individual's needs. Some already feel that soakers like the stock WW Piranha are good for their needs, yet others would laugh at that limit.

I'm all for those wanting to spend their time trying to push the limits and build soakers that fulfill their needs better than any current stock soaker can do. I also very much respect the attempts at sharing info, ideas, and suggestions between homemade builders and modders. However, there are those who do not have the desire to learn how to build a soaker, yet do appreciate a well-performing one.

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Post by Silence » Sun May 21, 2006 7:32 pm

I'm sorry if my attitude came across as arrogant, because that's definitely not what it was supposed to be--and I don't want to be considered arrogant. I just believe, however, that the fall in popularity has to do at least partially with the decay in soaker performance, so to boost the active water warrior population, we must build homemades that can match the power of the original CPS lines. However, if the soakers can beat the old CPSs, then that's fine too. I might strive to reach the limits of homemade soakers, but I want to encourage the community to at least match CPS power.

I still stand by the statement that, according to basic logic and common sense, why would a person want to dish out $200 for a CPS 2000 or a MXL unless he or she is truly serious about water fighting? I stand by my statement because somebody who is not serious will not pay that much, and that person might not want to build a homemade anyway. However, for those who are serious, homemade soakers provide a viable alternative that I believe is superior to the commercial CPS soaker option.

I do not scoff at those who don't feel they need a CPS 2000/MXL and are happy with a WW Piranha, but that seems to simply add more credibility to my argument: these people won't be the ones who would even think about building a homemade. Clearly, homemades are a decent alternative to CPS 2000s/MXL (if not to WW Piranhas), but I am again going far enough to say that, for most hardcore water warriors, homemades are the only alternative. If you think you want CPS 2000- or MXL-like power, you'll definitely be happy (if not happier) with a homemade.

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Post by DX » Sun May 21, 2006 10:00 pm

Some of your assertions can be disproven by examples in the past, such as serious users laying down as much money as necessary to secure the gun they want. And iSoaker has been soaking online about 3 times longer than I have, so if I have experience with the past, iSoaker has triple it. :rolleyes:

Also, do take into account how hard it is to propagate homemades into team arsenals. The most homemades held by a team in history is 7, and even then, only 2 of that team's homemades have ever been used in a war, and neither to great effect. It takes the perfect design to put superior power and range into a gun that is battle practical on the level of a stock soaker. So far, that has not been done because that silver bullet design has yet to appear.

Also know that the 4 most hardcore teams in the US still have stock soakers in their arsenals. The RM has quite a few: 3 CPS 2100s and 5 Flash Floods, to name a few. We also use guns that don't need to be power-modded, such as 4 CPS 2500s.

We still have a long, LONG way to go until homemades and mods become the standard in the upper ranks. And it will never happen in lower caliber teams. There's a lot of work to be done still...
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