Homemade store

Suggestions, comments, questions, and developments related to the Super Soaker Central site and forums.
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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:16 pm

No I don't. Anyone who is afraid of people getting hurt from water guns has the facts wrong. To date total known people who were injured by a water gun's direct shot: 0 people. What is much more risky is making them, using saws and drills, but I still do that quite often (making one right now). You see firemen disperse riots with a fire truck, and no one sues the firemen. The only water gunning related injury I ever had was a deep cut in my finger while I was cutting through some duct tape. I didn't sue to scissors company.

However, there was going to be a legal disclaimer in place as well as additions to our site's Legal Info page. If someone buys our guns they agree to the disclaimer, if they don't agree then they won't be getting the gun. I WOULD GET MONEY if they sue us because they obviously didn't read it and I could counter-sue. I don't plan on doing any of that. Let's keep the discussion on if this would get use. Everything else involved was being planned.

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Commander_Gaunt
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Post by Commander_Gaunt » Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:59 pm

Unfortunately a disclaimer may not be enough. But hey, it's your funeral.
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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:18 pm

Can't you read?
However, there was going to be a legal disclaimer in place as well as additions to our site's Legal Info page. If someone buys our guns they agree to the disclaimer, if they don't agree then they won't be getting the gun.

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Commander_Gaunt
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Post by Commander_Gaunt » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:06 pm

As I said before a disclaimer may not be enough (certainly not in U.K. law and I wouldn't imagine much difference in U.S. law) So yes I can read. And I'm just trying to help make sure you don't get sued so take a chill pill. But obviously I'm annoying you.

Three last questions :-

1). Are you setting up as a company or as an independant trader? (independant trader isn't the same as doing it on your own).

2). What sort of warranty would be provided? (Again I don't know about U.S. law, but in U.K. law you would have to have a warranty of one month even if you didn't want one).

3). Would it all be custom made, or would you consider making a basic gun with various optional upgrades? (just thinking about ease of production and stuff like that).

P.S. Sorry if I'm annoying you.
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NiborDude
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Post by NiborDude » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:15 pm

Buddy, this is how it goes down:

1. Doom makes homemade
2. Doom gets money from buyer
3. Doom ships it out
4. Everyone's happy

Seriously though, Doom knows what he's doing. He'll probably research on everything he needs to know and then he'll decide if he wants to sell or not. ;)
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Commander_Gaunt
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Post by Commander_Gaunt » Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:00 am

Fine, but doom would be forced to provide a warranty under U.K. law and probably U.S. law, he is welcome to risk it but I'm just trying to help.
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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:26 pm

Look, if they don't say they agree to my disclaimer, I'm not shipping out their gun. Simple as that. I won't even make it. That way I can't possibly get sued because they (1) either have my gun and agree to the disclaimer or (2) don't agree to the disclaimer and the deal is off. The disclaimer will say they can't sue me. Simple as that. If they want a gun made by me they must agree to the disclaimer. What are you trying to prove? I've said this 3 times now, this is how SpudTech does it if I'm not mistaken.

No one has really been hurt by a water gun anyway. I'm sure I could print the same messages SS does on my guns "Don't shoot in the face or eyes" and "Pump until it gets hard." I could even print a "Water guns may be a hazard to your health" on it to cover most anything.

To answer you other questions:
1). Are you setting up as a company or as an independant trader? (independant trader isn't the same as doing it on your own).
This is the internet buddy. You don't need to set up as anything unless you want to. There are thousands of online stores like that. There is (and can't really be) any regulation of any kind. To the best of my knowledge, online stores like Amazon are companies for the benefits involved. I won't make enough money for that.
2). What sort of warranty would be provided? (Again I don't know about U.S. law, but in U.K. law you would have to have a warranty of one month even if you didn't want one).
If it breaks, send it back to me and I'll look at it. I'd do that as a good person, not as business. I also highly doubt these guns would break... I've pumped my two chamber APH to something like 120 pumps (normal is 50 - 60) and it still held up without any trouble. These pressures are well within the limits of the PVC. Of all my homemades (and all I've heard of that were well made), NONE have had any real problems aside from leaking. I'll do testing of course and fix any problems like that.

If you're going to ask, I can't guarantee satisfaction as that depends on how you use it. I can only guarantee that it'll be better than what the major companies are putting out.
3). Would it all be custom made, or would you consider making a basic gun with various optional upgrades? (just thinking about ease of production and stuff like that).
THIS ISN'T A FACTORY. I can make everything custom and it wouldn't make much of a difference if I put out models. Handcrafted if you'd like to brag. ;)

Stop making everything too complicated, I've got answers to all of your questions. :P

Well anyway, this is how I see it:

1) I get a request for a homemade.
2) The buyer agrees to the disclaimer. If they don't, nothing further will be done. The emails will be kept for legal purposes if we must.
3) The buyer sends the money.
4) I make the gun, test it, and send it.
5) The buyer enjoys the gun.

...or possibly later...

6) Though highly unlikely, the buyer sends it back for repairs.

That covers it all, or does it?

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Spinner
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Post by Spinner » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:13 pm

Originally posted by Doom@Jan 2 2005, 04:26 PM
1). Are you setting up as a company or as an independant trader? (independant trader isn't the same as doing it on your own).


This is the internet buddy. You don't need to set up as anything unless you want to. There are thousands of online stores like that. There is (and can't really be) any regulation of any kind. To the best of my knowledge, online stores like Amazon are companies for the benefits involved. I won't make enough money for that.
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Actually, CG is correct there, at least as regards UK law. If you were setting up as a limited company, it would become rather complicated, but you get a limited liability. I don't think that's really necessary, and so you'd be looking at being a sole trader.

Even if it's the Internet, that doesn't mean doing business becomes completely pain-free: you still have to keep good records and pay income tax if your earning rise over a certain threshold. I somehow think it would be unlikely for you to rise over the first threshold, but you'd still need to have those account records ready, just in case the Inland Revenue comes knocking on your door.

That having been said, the USA may be different to the UK... B)
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Commander_Gaunt
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Post by Commander_Gaunt » Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:32 pm

Well doom you do have answers. And if you ever have to use such answers in a courtroom I would love to see. Obviously you feel that because this is the internet laws don't apply. I would also love to see that argument used in a courtroom.

Nibordude
Seriously though, Doom knows what he's doing
Soakers yes, Business and law...we'll have to disagree.

Spinner
Thanks for the backup, but obviously what I am trying to say doesn't matter... And neither does the law.

Doom
I'm just trying to give advice on things like law. If you don't want it fine, but lighten up.

Btw 200th post B)
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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:34 pm

You really need to know when to stop. SSCentral is not about arguing. You need to lighten up, I'm not going to argue this because I don't think that these legal issues will be a problem! I don't think that "internet laws don't apply," in fact I feel that you don't read ANYTHING I write when you say that. I merely was saying that the internet does not require you to register as a business. I wasn't debating the actual laws, I'll go along with them. I also doubt I'd get too many orders from the UK. What if some law in some third world country required there to be a import tax that I don't pay? :rolleyes:

If you think that I think "internet laws don't apply," then why would I have a blatantly obvious Legal Info page as well as some legal stuff you agree to when you join? I think they don't apply of course! Why do I have them then?

To date, total number of people sued over damage caused by modified or homemade water guns: 0. Simple as that. This is my business, and I appreciate that you're looking out for me, but please, learn to stop when you're ahead. This has turned from a suggestion into an argument that YOU ARE FUELING. I thought this was over until you made your last post.

I'd also suggest reading the rules. You can know every single law and point out others flaws but you have an 800x486 sized signature! That's 200 pixels longer than allowed and 386 pixels taller than allowed as said in the Board Guidelines! The irony of it, how could you not notice? It's also 46 kilobytes larger than the suggested image size for our site (not that most will notice). You're not looking too good in my eyes right now, and I have been extremely nice to you (remember Protected Members?). Don't mess this up.

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Neuro
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Post by Neuro » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:58 pm

Stop arguing like little kids. Also, not only is U.S. law far and away different from U.K. law, but as Doom said, it's the Internet buddy. What Doom will be doing is akin to selling items on eBay. Do you even need a disclaimer when selling on eBay? No. Do the items you sell on eBay need a warranty? No. They might have one, but even then it might be non-transferrable, so the seller would end up keeping warranty rights. And the final kicker: STFU inexperienced user! You're arguing over details that mean so little in the long run that it's really not even funny. Honestly, on your deathbed, are you going to be screaming "OMG THAT DOOM GUY FROM WHEN I WAS LIKE 15 DIDN'T HAVE A WARRANTY ON HIS HOMEMADES!"?

That said, let's get back on topic. I voted yes, because if the prices are low enough I may very well buy a CPH. Although I'd really like to make an APH myself.
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isoaker_com
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Post by isoaker_com » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:16 pm

This has turned from a suggestion into an argument
...funny, I never saw it as an argument; rather I saw it as a couple of members being concerned about potential problems that can and do arise in some cases when a product is being sold. Even with a disclaimer agreed to, if a problem arises that someone considers too much, a disclaimer's validity can be nullified.

As well, there is a big difference between selling the odd item on ebay or selling homemades in a most store-like set-up. Private, peer-to-peer sales are one thing, but pushing up a store onto SSCentral would turn SSCentral into a more comercialized site whether Doom likes it or not, even if he's the sole person making handcrafted homemades out of his workshop.

Oddly, to be concerned about the legal issues surrounding homemade sales is actually an indirect form of flattery since the type of problems feared would only arise assuming that the homemade store were successful. I believe there is a decent market in the soaker community that would keep Doom busy making soakers from time to time, but because of its potential success, I think it is very good of other members to be concerned if one of the buyers ends up not being so cool should a problem arise with a homemade Doom sold. It is better to be overprotective than to be caught off-guard, especially when it comes to liability.

Doom, your homemade store, IMO, is a good idea, but just be really sure you know what you're getting yourself into especially considering some of the crazy lawsuits out there that have sadly won. As well, I don't believe the ones earlier pointing out the potential legal issues were trying to get you to stop; rather they were being supportive, but protective, since the last thing we'd want to see if a prominent member of the soaker community saddled with an unforeseen lawsuit.

B)
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wetmonkey442
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Post by wetmonkey442 » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:23 pm

(time for the wetmonkey to make a rare appearance)

Hmmm...this is a very interesting arguement...er...discussion. The way I see it, Commander Gaunt, seems to think that this is a bit more than it might seem, and I think that everyone is overreacting a bit.


[at]the actual topic

I do not support this idea of a homemade store, because it pretty much defeats the purpose of a homemade. Since the beginning of homemades, people have constructed them for two reasons. 1) They were dissatisfied with the general trend of water gun quality and 2) They wanted to see if they could make it, and experience the excitement of using something that you created yourself. Buying "homemade" water guns from someone else, doesn't really fullfill the second reason. If someone else makes it, then you can't really say that it is yours, and thus it is not really as....special. At least in my opinion. I believe that a homemade is any gun built in your home, or garage, or basement, or even your friend's house, as long as it is built by you. IF not, it is not yours, and I know that I wouldn't feel much better using a well constructed gun built by me, then a superbly constructed gun built by Doom. (No offense, I'm sure that Doom's homemades are great).

It would be interesting however to see how this idea takes off. As said earlier, unfortunately many of the members here, are 10 year olds, who don't have the slightest idea what a money order or PayPal is. I'm sure many of the senior members though would actual go through with the transaction.



Random Thought: If you custom make the guns too, you could ask a bit more money, and custom paint your soakers too.
Good luck :)
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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:23 pm

To me the legal issues were implied. I completely intended to have full legal disclaimers checked over by my parents and a local lawyer (in fact, it was in my initial draft outline made a few months ago). This thread/poll was only meant to see if there was interest. As I've said earlier, this thread is meant for discussion of the interest.

Initially in my plan, I was going to put the store on SSCentral for at least a short while, that is, along with an Amazon and Cafepress store. However, I do not want SSCentral to be a commercial site, as that is completely against my original reasons for starting SSCentral. I was planning on making another (SSCentral affiliated but not hosted) website called "Custom Water Guns" or something to that effect. I even had a few writings made as to the gun's quality and my experience in the subject. If SSCentral ever got to the point where (1) I couldn't afford to run the business separately or (2) it would be more profitable to put this business on SSCentral, I would make SSCentral a commercial website and you'll be seeing some SSCentral-branded weaponry. ^_^

I also would like to sell (at no or little profit at) Latex Rubber Tubing. I have found a manufacturer of 7/16" thick LRT, but only large bulk box orders of 50 feet of 3 different tubings are available at cheapest. This store would save the water warrior much money as opposed to buying the entire $300+ box. The price, in all likeliness, probably would be cheaper than current McMaster prices for higher quality and thicker tubing. All money gained from this would be used to pay off the box and for future boxes.

Let's please keep the discussion (as I stated earlier) to whether or not people are interested in this. Legal issues have already been taken care of and are NOT A PROBLEM.

As for what Wetmonkey said, I highly agree. I personally never would buy a "homemade" water gun. I'd only make them myself. However, I have found that many people really don't have any idea how to make these guns, and I think even after I release my step-by-step guide, this problem won't be solved. That problem I don't see a solution to except for selling water guns.

These water guns are not meant for those who could or want to make their own. In that case, go make your own water guns and save me some time! I am planning on making these guns just mostly for the people who wouldn't or couldn't make their own -- I know how it feels to want better weaponry and after my homemade ventures, I'm never turning back.

I'm still deciding if the interest is enough. Let's stay on topic in the next few replies (Wetmonkey did).

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NiborDude
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Post by NiborDude » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:31 pm

To me the legal issues were implied. I completely intended to have full legal disclaimers checked over by my parents and a local lawyer (in fact, it was in my initial draft outline made a few months ago).
Like I said. Doom knows what he's doing and will research on everything he needs to know.

As far as I'm concerned, all I would buy is a CPH. I don't know how to make one. I would study from it and make my own soon after.
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