CPS 2000s and Monster XLs

General water gun discussion.
Peter MJ
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Post by Peter MJ » Thu May 18, 2006 9:54 am

You have my blessing, isoaker.com :) , if you wish to convert the posts into an article for www.isoaker.com. Please add the appropriate references/source acknowledgements and I'm all for it. I have not seen any responses from Ben, just check with him, as the content was originally posted here and to avoid any misunderstandings. I have registered on your website as well, as to allow posting there as well. In case you need any assistance converting the posts, please feel free to contact me.

As for me appearing in the past on other websites, I unfortunately have to dispel that notion as I only became a blip on the radar last year, after being reintroduced to a long lost love (soakers) through a local supermarket (they sold a leftover party of soakers consisting of CPS2100's). The last soaker I used before that was a XP 250 (unfortunately no longer alive, great piece of equipment).

In any case, I'm glad you find the posts that useful, if it helps remove some preconceptions people have about soakers, I'm all for it :) .

Some ideas on how to introduce more people to homemades:
- Build more comprehensive guides! As a rule, it is better to have one step to many in a construction guide, than one to few.
- Post more pictures, not only of the finished product, but also of the various stages of construction.
- Try to use standardized parts that are easily available, and mention explicitly where they came from.
- Explain in easy language the basic principles behind each design, why it works, the expected range/output and what the basic philosophy is behind it is, as well as its expected use in a battlefield.
- Don't just build homemades that are "extreme", but design a range of guns, going from extremely simple to more complex. This will allow people to learn the basics first, and move to more extensive designs later.
- Focus more effort on building something that not only shoots great, but also has a nice outward appearance. Most homemades I've seen look like someone raided a plumbers' convention. One might even consider starting a contest on who can produce the best "case mod" for homemades. Considering how creative some of the users around here are, that should not be that much of a problem. Right now, a CPS2000 / CPS2500 with its clean lines beats anything else around (even stock soakers that came after it).
- Keep in mind that soakers do appeal to younger audiences. Even though you don't have to abide by the strict rules and regulations that big companies have to follow, I would not feel that comfortable if I saw young children running around with potentially dangerous homemades designed by me. Keeping construction plans of more powerful weapons in a members only area might solve that problem.
- Be creative! Don't just design something that only blasts x meters/feet, but focus also on more radical designs (perhaps a short range riot blast, like that new Buzz Bee Toys gimmick, only done right). A good multi-barrel weapon might also be interesting. Something that might also prove nice would be some sort of water mortar. I tested a CPS2000 Mk2 for that (the stream breaks up in quite big “balls” of water if one shoots it in a steep angle with a really nice bombard effect). A purposely designed weapon might improve upon that… In any case, I think that unless someone has a complete change of heart, stock soakers are going to remain low power for the foreseeable future. I tested a Blazer recently, and the difference between that gun and previous CPS weaponry in terms of power is startling (it does not come even close) even though the range is roughly equivalent. Also, the trigger grip area in especially this weapon, but also many other stock guns, is extremely small. I can’t even fit my hand in there properly. Personally I can’t help but feel indifferent towards any company that kills its own market (Super Soaker never had any problems selling higher priced big guns before) by releasing lower grade guns and then defend its decision to releases these soakers by stating that people are not willing to pay for bigger guns. It sound like a solution in search of a problem, that never existed in the first place. A well-balanced line-up of properly designed guns (without second rate technologies like Max-D, or a reliable version of it), properly marketed, with good availability online and in brick-and-mortar stores (and not just in the United States) would go a long way towards restoring the market.

Personally I do feel that the original intend of the tread deserves some attention as well as an article topic. A well written part, either as a forum tread (might be buried over time though) or as an easily available article might help to dispel some of the myths that surrounds the original two guns of the topic (the CPS2000 and the Monster XL) as to avoid the unnecessary annoyance of undesirable forum threads of the “I want that!” kind. If they still want those guns after reading the article/forum thread then at least they might consider going after it in a different fashion. I’m sorry if that was a bit buried under my other posts, as that definitely deserves to be mentioned. As such, if the webmasters are interested in keeping this discussion going, perhaps a name change might be in order for this thread to allow the recreation of a more on-topic CPS200/Monster XL one.

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isoaker_com
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Post by isoaker_com » Thu May 18, 2006 11:34 am

@ Peter_MJ: More great thoughts well-expressed! In terms of article creation, I await Ben's permission as this good discussion arose here at SSCentral. My thoughts on the article business is if Ben posts the article on SSCentral, I'll simply provide links from iSoaker.com to the posted article. I had posted a link to this thread, but I think I need to rebuild that link since this thread has been moved.

@joannaardway
I don't see how it can end up being this controversial. I should have instinctly locked the topic
I'm somewhat saddened by your choice to not only move this thread, but create another one in its place without even taking any of the discussion in mind and locking it. There is so much good info and good discussion in here, perhaps too much to digest at once, but I would have hoped for a newly created brief info thread on the CPS2000 and Monster XL would take some of these points into account.
Though not having anticipated a controversial thread (though I don't quite consider there to be a controversy here), the thread ended up bringing to light many fallacies while not being unfair towards different preferences, merely stating unspoken facts and prompting interesting insights into aspects of both stock soaker creation as well as modding and homemade creation.

:cool:
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Hannibal
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Post by Hannibal » Thu May 18, 2006 3:15 pm

isoaker_com wrote:@ Peter_MJ: More great thoughts well-expressed! In terms of article creation, I await Ben's permission as this good discussion arose here at SSCentral. My thoughts on the article business is if Ben posts the article on SSCentral, I'll simply provide links from iSoaker.com to the posted article. I had posted a link to this thread, but I think I need to rebuild that link since this thread has been moved.

@joannaardway

I'm somewhat saddened by your choice to not only move this thread, but create another one in its place without even taking any of the discussion in mind and locking it. There is so much good info and good discussion in here, perhaps too much to digest at once, but I would have hoped for a newly created brief info thread on the CPS2000 and Monster XL would take some of these points into account.
Though not having anticipated a controversial thread (though I don't quite consider there to be a controversy here), the thread ended up bringing to light many fallacies while not being unfair towards different preferences, merely stating unspoken facts and prompting interesting insights into aspects of both stock soaker creation as well as modding and homemade creation.

:cool:
Yeah, I have to say, having been busy for the last few days and then reading this, that this thread is the best read I have had in a long time. :cool: The new thread in the buy/sell section could have incorporated some of the things said here while still gratifying its original purpose. I can hardly take in this all.


EDIT: Forgot about this:
@ Hannibal: The CPS 2000 might have practical uses, but there's still no excuse for a newbie (not neccessarily a n00b) to come to these forums and scream out that he or she wants one. I'm even more surprised that you support the Monster XL; it's inferior mainly due to its mobility, or the lack thereof. Clearly, the people you play against don't use your mobility disadvantage against you, or you would be against the Monster XL and justify that opinion by saying you have one. Both weapons are severly outclassed by homemades, which can easily get 55-60 feet of range (here, we can ask if you have any of these weapons and use this against you--ha!) and 50X streams, and the SSC forums are used as a grounds for homemades proponents.
I have to say, that of all stock soakers, the CPS 2000 is one of the best. The huge range of 55-60 feet and the huge (23-30x, it's debated) output, combined with tap shots, make it very effective.

I really don't have much of a problem with the Monster XL in mobility. I am a very fast runner, and fairly strong. It really isn't too much of a problem. I would be more likely to use my Monster XL often if it shot 60 feet on both nozzles. But the Monster XL is fairly effective. It wipes out the light CPS's and goes pretty fairly against 1500's/1700's. And yes, the people I play with, which happen to be members of my own family and my friends, know about the mobility disadvantage of the Monster XL. But in battle it really isn't noticeable, if you're a strong person.

I am aware that some homemades shoot 60 feet. But others, as I have read, only shoot 40 feet. But I really would be interested in facing you with me using my 2000 and you one of your homemades. I would dare say the 2000 could hold its own against one.

I am also rather annoyed that you, a person who has apparently never even used a CPS 2000 or Monster XL, wrote, posted, and locked an article posting only the cons of each, and did not post any of the very good content in this topic.
Last edited by Hannibal on Thu May 18, 2006 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Thu May 18, 2006 7:23 pm

I am assuming that anyone that arrives asking for one will know the pros, otherwise they wouldn't be asking for one.

Hence, I have presented the cons, to save me stating them all the time.
I have collapsed the essentials of them down, so that they might bother to read it.

I present the other side of the argument to lock the topic:

This amount of content would completely overload a n00b. It would distract from the intended point and wouldn't allow the topic to maintain a point. I got confused by the volume of stuff, and I know what I'm doing - I remember almost none of it.

If someone would summarise this, I will happily add it to the other topic.

As an aside note: I have used both CPS 2000s [both types] and a Monster XL - (not mine, a friends). I do not yet have homemades, but, I don't believe that a CPS 2000 could hold it's own that well against a weapon with more shot time, range and output. It is perfectly possible to achieve that with a homemade.

Please avoid replies about the political aspect of the thread. I had originally intended to lock it, but decided I might see where it went. I admit I didn't quite expect this, so I need to correct myself.

I cannot put this wealth into the thread, so it needs "bite-sizing".
"Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Thu May 18, 2006 8:51 pm

While the way this thread is going may be unexpected, it is neither overly political nor controversial. Also, I don't mind if another pinned thread is created, as long as you (joannaardway) don't mind us continuing this reasonable and very useful discussion.
Peter MJ wrote:- Focus more effort on building something that not only shoots great, but also has a nice outward appearance. Most homemades I've seen look like someone raided a plumbers' convention. One might even consider starting a contest on who can produce the best "case mod" for homemades. Considering how creative some of the users around here are, that should not be that much of a problem. Right now, a CPS2000 / CPS2500 with its clean lines beats anything else around (even stock soakers that came after it).
Exactly...I've pointed out this problem a couple of times, but not too obviously. I certainly support painting soaker homemades, possibly in the style Baghead has done for his Nerf homemades, and that could have a profound effect on homemade popularity. Clearly, however, component kits sold at a tentative SSC store won't include the materials for painting, as the generally-used paints are common spray paints. I'm thinking of using duct tape to cover up the inner workings (reliable enough so that I won't need to uncover and fix them) of my soon-to-be-built homemades and get a nice, smooth shape; then, I'll paint over the duct tape.

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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Sat May 20, 2006 5:11 pm

I'm trying to keep it simple. It is far far to easy to overload a newcomer with information, so I want to get across the basic points of why more thought may be needed.

However, it also details how they can get one... The ebay hints should be a good start... because asking on these forums isn't likely to get you much further than a few suggestions about other guns and ebay advice.

I'm still waiting for a summary...
"Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore

"So many people have come and gone, their faces fade as the years go by. Yet I still recall as I wander on, as clear as the sun in the summer sky" - More than a feeling, Boston

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isoaker_com
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Post by isoaker_com » Sat May 20, 2006 8:15 pm

Re-reading and thinking about your initial post, the main crux of the discussion I believe lies in the following two sentences.
It is completely within the capacity of almost everyone to build a homemade with more range and power than a CPS 2000. And the odds are that it will be far, far cheaper.

It could also have a nozzle selector, and more than 1 second of shot time.
It can replaced with a statement than many homemade blasters or modified soakers can create as strong or even stronger streams than a CPS2000. You can even add that those here at SSCentral would be willing to help guide interested individuals in how to make a powerful soaker. However, to think that 'almost everyone' can build a good homemade and that it is 'far, far cheaper' is not only misleading, but also completely untrue. Peter_MJ's posts do a good job at covering the reasons for why homemades aren't cheaper and can't be done by 'almost everyone' so I won't re-state the statements here.

:cool:
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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Sat May 20, 2006 8:29 pm

I shall edit it, but the point is that CPS 2000s can go for $150+ dollars. A powerful homemade will almost certainly be less than that.

I've edited both the Buy/Sell topic and this one. I hope that it's a better introduction.
Last edited by joannaardway on Sat May 20, 2006 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore

"So many people have come and gone, their faces fade as the years go by. Yet I still recall as I wander on, as clear as the sun in the summer sky" - More than a feeling, Boston

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Sat May 20, 2006 8:41 pm

Just a suggestion: you could summarize Peter_MJ's excellent posts and add that as a second major post in the locked, pinned version of this thread.

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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Sat May 20, 2006 8:51 pm

I don't know what points he sees as most important.

Ideally he needs to post a new summarized version in this thread, and then I'll add it (possibly with a little pruning)
"Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore

"So many people have come and gone, their faces fade as the years go by. Yet I still recall as I wander on, as clear as the sun in the summer sky" - More than a feeling, Boston

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isoaker_com
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Post by isoaker_com » Sat May 20, 2006 10:52 pm

joannaardway wrote:I shall edit it, but the point is that CPS 2000s can go for $150+ dollars. A powerful homemade will almost certainly be less than that.

I've edited both the Buy/Sell topic and this one. I hope that it's a better introduction.
Thing is, to calculate the 'true' cost of building a homemade, you also need to factor in time it takes to learned the building skills required as well as building and assembling time. I'll agree that homemade water blasters can undoubtedly be made much more powerful than any stock soaker. It's the added time+energy+skills components that makes homemades an unrealistic alternative for the mass population. For those striving for heavy-duty water cannons and willing to put the effort into it, homemades are most-definitely the way to go.

:cool:
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Sat May 20, 2006 11:15 pm

@ iSoaker.com: I agree that it takes a certain amount of initial determination to build one's first homemade (I got that long ago, so now I'm just waiting for my summer break), but not to the extent you're referring to. It doesn't take too much skill; you just need to be able to read the blueprints and documentation for these homemades and read the usage instructions provided with each product that you'll use (primer/hot glue gun, saw, etc.). Effort seems to be part of time, and even if the alternative is working at $30 per hour--far more than what the average high school earns (if he earns anything)--you'll still save money by doing this, as long as you don't take more than four or five hours. I haven't built any homemades before, but I think the consensus is that it doesn't take too long, especially if you know what you're doing--you just need to wait for the glue to dry.

EDIT: @ joannaardway: I like how you switched "Monster XLs" and "CPS 2000"s in the name of the other thread so there wouldn't be a conflict.

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ZOCCOZ
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Post by ZOCCOZ » Sat May 20, 2006 11:19 pm

What would be the hours spend on building a homemade, from start of buying materials to the finishing paint job? Multiply each hour times $7-$10 US, which is even somewhat below average construction labor.

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Sun May 21, 2006 12:28 am

Well, yes, I assumed a slightly--um, exaggerated--salary there. As you can see, however, even with a very liberal estimate, the cost of making a homemade (that crushes a CPS 2000/Monster XL in terms of performance) is very small and practical. And ZOCCOZ's correction basically nullifies even the worst of time/money disadvantages.
Last edited by Soakologist on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DX
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Post by DX » Sun May 21, 2006 2:11 am

20 minutes to 3 hours getting the parts, depending on how many stores you have to hit and where they are located [my nearest source of check valves is 45 minutes away past the New York border].

Actual construction including sawing and gluing takes anywhere from 2 hours to 5, depending on:
.size of homemade and amount of parts
.features such as tracked pump, on-board reservoir, backpack, etc.
.experience with homemades [efficiency goes way up after the first few]

Most users do not paint their homemades. That step is out of the normal equation.

So I cannot make an estimate of the total production cost in time, since every single individual homemade of every single individual builder is different.
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