CPS 2000s and Monster XLs

General water gun discussion.
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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Tue May 16, 2006 10:19 am

The range, as I have learned, really depends on the size of the homemade's pc. Bigger is better if you want more range.
This is true, but I'll elaborate on how. Fluid force is a function of the pressure and the surface area the pressure is pushing on. A larger surface area will have more force. So yes, using larger ID PVC in the pressure chambers will actually have benefits. ;)

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Tue May 16, 2006 10:12 pm

@ kirbs: I hope I didn't offend you with that age remark...I was just commenting randomly :cool: . Sorry about that.
Ben wrote:This is true, but I'll elaborate on how. Fluid force is a function of the pressure and the surface area the pressure is pushing on. A larger surface area will have more force. So yes, using larger ID PVC in the pressure chambers will actually have benefits. ;)
Well, it will also take more time to pressurize a larger PC to the same pressure as a smaller PC--this amount of time varies directly with the volume of the PC. However, if you're only getting more fluid force directly related to the area, you're worse off, because a larger PC has a smaller area-to-volume ratio than a smaller PC. Of course, this is assuming your physics logic concerning the fluid force is correct; I wouldn't know about that anyway, so I'm just taking your word for it.

Peter MJ
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Post by Peter MJ » Tue May 16, 2006 10:18 pm

A couple of things regarding this discussion are worth noting:

1) It is obvious that homemade water cannons will always be more powerful than modded stock guns. A stock gun was shaped in a certain form to comply with the design specifications laid out when the gun was originally envisioned. Already on the drawing board, certain limits are placed on range and distance, mostly based on expected list price, materials used in the construction of the soaker and of course safety concerns and this in term will impact how much extra power can be added tot the gun. With homemades, the builder can set his or her own limits through better materials and sturdier construction, and is not at all hampered by limiting factors, such as the strength of the materials used for the base gun (whether it be a CPS2000 or other gun). Budget constraints and availability of suitable parts will thus be the biggest limits.
2) Building a successful homemade watergun requires a certain amount of skill, patience and knowledge of the processes involved in pressurizing water. Most of the people on this site that are involved in homemades have a lot of interest in the subject and years of experience. That makes it easy to forget that the majority of people out there have barely enough skill to fix a broken gun. Building one from scrap that functions well is way beyond the possibilities of many “ordinary” people. Unless extensive guides featuring step-by-step instructions are published (possibly included with a do-it-yourself kit with all the necessary parts so people do not have to go to a shop to get them themselves), building a homemade watergun is not going to become extremely popular.
3) Materials required for homemades can be a bit difficult to obtain. It is therefore a lot easier for most people to buy a stock gun.
4) Homemades can be overkill in many situations. These guns are generally made by people that know the power of what they are making and are taking precautions when using them. As the CPS2000 already can be quite dangerous when used by novices (shooting in the face), I do not want to know what would happen if a couple of punk kids start shooting at others with homemade guns that do not include safety limits. If there is one way of bringing negative publicity to water guns, that is it.
5) Homemades, even though they feature interesting technology, generally don’t score that high in the looks department. I have not seen any homemades that rival for example a CPS2000 in sleekness. Given the choice, I think many people would opt for the CPS2000 instead of a comparably priced homemade.
6) The CPS2000 has become a collector’s item. This alone is enough to drive the price up. I don’t think people who buy a $250 gun are going to jeopardize it in a down and dirty water war (unless they have too much money). It therefore does not really matter how powerful the gun is. It is not likely to see much action anyhow.
7) There are apparently a lot of idiots out there that are willing to spend a lot of money on these guns. In the Netherlands, on a local auction site, CPS2000Mk2’s (MK1’s were probably never sold in the Netherlands) pop up on a regular basis. I have not seen any go beyond Euro 25 (US $30) and some of them are in quite good shape. I bought one of that auction site for Euro 15,-. Perhaps I should buy the next one that pops up and sell it on eBay. The fact that people are willing to pay up to 5 times the original selling price for what amounts to little more than a bit of plastic, a piece of rubber and some crews says it all. If you really want such a gun, don’t bid on it on eBay (unless you have a lot of money or are extremely lucky, you won’t win it anyway), but look for it in other places. You might just get it for cheap. Also, beware of overcharging sellers! In the UK there is an eBay seller calling himself The Super Soaker Store selling new-in-box CPS2500s for absurd prices. He probably got them from a German store, which had a supply of them last summer (he probably bought most of them) and now sells them for three times as much as he originally paid for them. I got mine at the same place for Euro 40 including shipping, which is not bad considering that there seems to be a 1:1 conversion rate of Euro to US$ for many products, despite differences in the exchange rate. This example does show that buyers need to be careful and use their heads as you can get ripped off on eBay quite easily.
8) For all the people picking on the Monster XL because of the weight, go to the gym and build some muscles. I have one myself (more of a showpiece, as I spend quite some time restoring it from sun bleach) and I can easily lift it with one arm (loaded). It is not that heavy. The gun may be a bit underpowered as opposed to previous CPS models, but not as much as many people seem to believe. If you like big soakers, this is a really nice gun, but as with the CPS2000, way too expensive.
9) I strongly advise people who are looking for CPS guns on eBay to look for either a CPS2500 or a CPS1700, as these are in my opinion the best CPS guns in the price/performance category. Chasing a CPS2000, especially for new users, is only going to result in a lot of frustration and nobody that owns this gun (or a Monster XL for that matter) on these forums is going to sell either of them. So asking for them or responding to such requests in the forum in any other place than the Buy/sell section should be discouraged at all times.

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Tue May 16, 2006 11:34 pm

Wow...that's a lot of content. Good job, Peter MJ.

However, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. If you want to help clear up the misunderstandings about CPS 2000s and MXLs that are popping up here, then be my guest; otherwise, your actual opinion is hidden to some extent.

I think people buy CPS 2000s and MXLs for what they believe to be great performance or even intimidation, not because of looks. If this is the case, then a cheap homemade will easily do much better. In addition, I'm waiting to see what people like Baghead can do with the paintjobs of homemades. People who want true power won't mind going through problems (if there are any) to build a homemade or even mod a CPS 2100 or something.

Safety, which you think is a big kicker for homemades, is not a problem at all. Any medium or large gun can cause damage if it is riot-blasted into another's face, and that is what all CPS 2000 accidents are caused by.

Clearly, price is one of the biggest problems with CPS 2000s and MXLs, and sellers jack up the price because they know there are tons of newbies out there who don't know any better. Duxburian has stated, on innumerable occasions, that he could build a battle-practical homemade for only $20, as cheap as most new, sub-par commercial soakers, that absolutely rocks all those $200 CPS 2000s and MXLs. In addition, Ben has said (I think, at least) that CPHs are even cheaper--one could build a high-performance CPH for only $7 or so. I have not confirmed these figures, but they prove the final superiority of homemades.

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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Wed May 17, 2006 8:24 am

I can see ways of making a CPH for only a very small amount.

With a splashzooka type thing, with a hose connector to fill it, I could put something together quite cheaply - if I could find a source of UK LRT...
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Peter MJ
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Post by Peter MJ » Wed May 17, 2006 9:13 am

The main point of the argument was that, even though homemades are generally better than stock guns (you’re the designer, you set the limits), in a consumption-oriented society, people are more likely to go for instant gratification rather than do it themselves (the truth is that most people are comfort-seeking and not willing to invest energy in such endeavors). This is the reason that these popular/notorious soakers reach such high prices. I guess my point wasn’t that clear in the earlier post. Perhaps some people are made crazy by all sorts of dubious reports of the CPS2000 or Monster XL being a “must-have” soakers with “ultimate” power with a high “intimidation” factor, however, these are generally uniformed kids chasing a mad dream of owning a CPS2000 and do not seem, at least to me, like the kind of people that can shell out US$250 for a 10 year old piece of plastic. Perhaps that is the case, and these kids (or their parents) are willing to spend that kind of money. I do not know, yet I find it startling and a little incomprehensible that people are so quick to accept any rumors without doing at least a little bit of research. Hopefully this forum will open a few eyes, and save us from annoying posts of people aggressively requesting this or that soaker.

One thing you have to take into consideration though… I have seen many people on this forum stating that it is a lot cheaper to buy a homemade and than provide some figure that is than compared to soaker prices. While this is understandable (as one would generally only compare direct costs, the amount one has to pay up front), economically speaking it is not correct as you are comparing list prices to material costs. I suspect the bill of materials for companies like Hasbro or Buzz bee Toys is not extremely high either, and probably lower than a person building a single homemade due to economies of scale. The final list price for a retail soaker not only includes this bill of materials, but also the added cost per unit calculated from fixed and variable costs, among others write-offs for company facilities, rent for buildings, maintenance costs for machineries (providing they own any production facilities, otherwise transport costs from any facility in China/Taiwan will need to be paid), investments in R&D, salaries of the employees, energy costs and marketing costs and finally a profit mark-up (they are in the business of making money). This in the end will determine the final list price. If one were to add something similar to homemades, the final cost price picture would more resemble that of retail soakers. There are very few people that are going to pay themselves for the time spent on building a homemade, but if one were to start-up a business selling homemades, this would come into play. This is the reason that “doing it yourself” will generally beat any retail purchase, unless economies of scale push the material costs to such levels that even with all the added costs they are able to offer the product below your material costs (assuming the materials are even available). Of course, with homemades, one gets to design the final product to one’s own liking (without any regards to rules, regulations and possible lawsuits), which is a really big plus. I for one am quite interested to see what would come out if people start “pimping” their homemades and start building custom bodies.

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isoaker_com
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Post by isoaker_com » Wed May 17, 2006 6:49 pm

On the quick scan of the forums, I must've missed this thread, but coming across it now, Peter_MJ raises so many good and valid points on various things that I find it rather refreshing to read.

In a sense, his posts have managed to pretty much summarize the stock VS homemade water blaster differences very well, bringing into light a lot of misconceptions and misinformation out there regarding why some appear to prefer one option over the other. Sadly, I fear many may either not view this thread or may not fully appreciate all the things discussed in it.

@ Peter_MJ: I'd really like it if your posts were converted into some sort of article for reposting.

:cool:
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Post by Peter MJ » Wed May 17, 2006 9:18 pm

Thanks isoaker_com :)

I wouldn't mind combining the posts into an article (and elaborate if appropriate on the arguments put forward), however I'm not quite sure what type of format would be applicable, whether a new thread or a complete article would be appropriate (perhaps Ben as site administrator could give his insights on this). Nonetheless, as every good trilogy, the deeper issues are saved for last.

As mentioned in the previous two posts, two completely different solutions to one deeper problem are preferred by people with completely different views regarding the amount of energy, effort and resources they wish to commit. The first “type” of users will look to their own creativity and interests to “create” solution that completely covers their needs and denounce to a degree the "overuse" of financial resources to achieve their ends. These users are generally well informed about the capabilities of the equipment they use and of past and present of-the-shelf soakers. On the other side of the divide are generally either:
1) less informed people, whose limited knowledge of equipment they wish to acquire has been deeply influenced by peer “stories” of “wonder weapons”.
2) people for whom a lack of time and possibly interest curtails any desire to acquire a deeper understanding of the underlying principles of watergun design
3) collectors/older users who are interested in rarer soakers for a myriad of reasons, including showpieces, childhood memories, investments (with soaker prices hitting new highs every time, buying soakers to later resell them is not a bad business) and possible use on a few occasions.
4) People whose intellectual capabilities simply aren’t sufficient to design anything by themselves. Many people on this forum have been involved with soaker design for quite some time. When one is so familiar with a subject, this can cloud one’s mind as to believe that everyone should be capable of building the same thing. This unfortunately is not true. What may seem like a simple construction plan to one person, may be completely incomprehensible for another. There are unfortunately many people out there that have a lot of difficulty following even the simple instructions of IKEA. I design software for the company that I work for. As I work directly with end users, I constantly get feedback as to how things work in practice. The results might scare a lot of you. Many people are simply unable to truly move outside the box and make the information theirs. For the software I wrote a really simple user manual to enable everyone to make use of some more complex features. This manual included visual instructions that are far easier to understand than most of the diagrams I have seem on this and other sites. Yet I constantly have to personally aid employees and guide them through the various steps. In other words, they SEE the diagrams, but they don’t COMPREHEND them. And that is a big issue any promoter of homemade will have to overcome.

Both schools of though have been born out of the same problem though. The fact is that waterguns, after reaching a high point in around the year 2000, have declined rapidly in both quality and output. This has not been lost on the general market. Also, surely and steadily, there has been a general decline in the (worldwide) market for soakers. This has been going on for years now. When the first Super Soakers were released in 1990, every kid had one. I used up several SS100s and a SS200 in those years. Looking at the toy market now, waterguns have become an afterthought, and they are rarely spotted in the streets nowadays. The same actually goes for more outdoor sports/games. And it is no coincidence that the decline coincides with the rise of video games as a mass entertainment medium. What is left in the water gun market is a very vocal group of hardcore enthusiasts that desire a better gun than is currently being sold by any of the major manufacturers. Hasbro and Buzz Bee Toys can make tear drawing statements all they want regarding the loss of the high margin market, but the fact remains that there is still an enthusiast market out there that is served by no one. And this is exactly where the divide starts between homemade creators/builders and eBay buyers. Both are seeking a solution to the problem of no available powerful retail guns, yet go in different directions. Who is right in the end? Is that really a question that can be answered? It all comes down to what one is comfortable with. We may find it strange that people are paying 5 times the original selling price for a ten year old item, but those same people might in turn frown upon the enthusiast market as being too high-end or technologically complex in their solutions as not to suit their taste for an immediate fix for their problem. As shown above, in the end, all want the same; people just take different paths to achieve that end based on their respective worldviews and capabilities.

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Wed May 17, 2006 10:54 pm

Wow. You really should write an article--Ben might be able to help, though this would also be appropriate at iSoaker.com, as it concerns commercial soakers--especially with the structure. Earlier, you just listed points, but I can definitely see where you're coming from now. The second paragraph in the last post really hit the mark.

I think a homemade store supported by SSC would really help in appealing to the enthusiasts. So many people have shown support for it, especially in the selling of kits and individual components rather than whole homemades, that this could spark a resurrection of the water gun. If I wasn't an enthusiast, I'd be more interested if my friend told me about a store that sold powerful homemade kits than I would be if he just told me about an intellectual, closely-knit community.

In addition, the rise of paintball and now airsoft have contributed to the downfall of soakers. Clearly, they have more performance and all, but these are more fun to use (it's just water on a summer day, not objects that can cause swelling, bleeding, and blindness) and to build.

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DX
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Post by DX » Wed May 17, 2006 11:09 pm

Town Ordinances here ban both Paintball and Airsoft. So soaking is easier to propogate around due to lack of legal barriers. While homemades in general have not been too helpful in promoting our wars, water balloon launchers and water war-related digital media have been red-hot. The Douchenator is probably responsible for half the team. It is discussed on the track, in the halls, and even at someone's party. There is a considerable amount of interest in launchers, enough that selling some locally might be profitable. I've been looking at the prices of parts recently to quote a friend about the cost of making him one. Plus, the water cannon/launcher has yet to make its battlefield debut. :rolleyes: Making short movies has also allowed knowledge of the Douchenator and water wars to spread quickly across the school.

Tech in general is very important in promoting water warfare. Especially at this age level. Our teams now reach from Freshmen to Seniors, something that would not be possible without Tech.

@ Peter_MJ: Nice posts! You managed to cover a lot of important points.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Wed May 17, 2006 11:20 pm

Unfortunately, I doubt technology on my part will convert my friends--paintball and airsoft are allowed here, and my city has about twice as many people as yours--and that doesn't even count the surrounding county suburbs. My high school itself has over 1,000 people (not too many, but probably more than yours), though I'd rather not even stand close to 3/4 of them. However, it is good to see that Tech has brought some success on your part.

Now, you face the next task: converting university students at whatever university you go to!

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DX
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Post by DX » Wed May 17, 2006 11:29 pm

Ridgewood High School had 1600 students as of last year. :p And we are not even the largest school in the county, not by a long-shot. My town is not a city, but this is the most densely populated county in the most densely populated state. Over a million people crammed into a not all that large county mostly classified as suburban.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Wed May 17, 2006 11:35 pm

Duxburian wrote:Ridgewood High School had 1600 students as of last year. :p And we are not even the largest school in the county, not by a long-shot. My town is not a city, but this is the most densely populated county in the most densely populated state. Over a million people crammed into a not all that large county mostly classified as suburban.
Oops...I guess I was really deluded there (your school has about as many students as mine, and they're probably more respectable, and the county is much larger). I take back everything I said about your population before this...sorry about that. It's quite impressive, then, what you've done.

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isoaker_com
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Post by isoaker_com » Thu May 18, 2006 12:31 am

@Peter_MJ: your alias seems particularly familiar to me. Were you also a member once-upon-a-time of either Aquatica or WaterWar.net (though I think I remember you back in the age of Aquatica)? If so, it's good to see you still contributing thoughts to Soakerdom.

I really enjoy reading your thoughts on.. uh.. the general state of water warfare. You've put to words many thoughts I've yearned to get across from soaker quality in many ways affected by consumer dollars migrating to other things such as video games, etc., the ease of purchase versus the 'ease' of building/modding a soaker, time = money aspects, and more.

The posts really don't need much to be merged into one article with three related sections. With yours and Ben's permission, I'd like to repost your posts (or an edited version) in article format on iSoaker.com as well. The number of ideas brought up would be good to refer others to who lack a general appreciation for the greater complexity of why soakers are the way they are. What I particularly like is that the way the thoughts are presented, there is no bashing of stock soakers or homemades/mods, but rather giving better insight into many aspects people seem to overlook.

Interesting how this thread has evolved.

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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Thu May 18, 2006 9:29 am

I completely intended this as a link to direct n00bs at - not a breakdown of why people might or might not want them.

I don't see how it can end up being this controversial. I should have instinctly locked the topic.

I'm going to unpin this topic, and re-create the original one. I'll let this discussion continue, but perhaps it shouldn't be a pinned discussion.
"Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore

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