SuperCAP

Homemade water gun threads that are notable.
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SSCBen
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SuperCAP

Post by SSCBen » Tue May 30, 2006 11:51 pm

Constant air pressure water guns are rarely seen and consequently have rarely been made. Of course, doing what others have not done is my specialty, and I'm doing my own take on the CAP design, continuing the "Super" series of water guns with SuperCAP.

This water gun will be likely the second CAP water gun ever created after dekard's original water gun. Lots of people have talked about these water guns, but to my knowledge no one aside from dekard had made a water gun that used CAP. A few had used regulated CO2, but none had used air other than dekard.

In 2003 I had believed that the CAP backpack design would be the ultimate water gun, and it still is very much my ideal water gun. This water gun will be, for me at least, my ultimate water gun and water gun of choice when completed. I can't wait.

This water gun will be significantly larger and more complicanted than most things we've seen before. However, I can handle the size and weight with my frame backpack. This water gun should be frightening on the field, and I can only imagine someone wouldn't want to run into a user of this water gun.

Admittedly, I had kept information on this project fairly secret. The water gun is not complete, so please do not ask questions as if it was. I only have obtained all parts required except for a segment of PVC pipe and a few couplers and will begin construction soon.

Pictures will be available as soon as the memory card reader is found...

A few unique design features are planned:

- Effective CAP via a good $35 air pressure regulator
- Actual air tank used for safety (a cheap 7-gallon tank)
- All parts mounted on a frame backpack with waist belt for ease of carrying and back health
- Regulator bypass for maximum power when wanted
- 8 liter capacity (designed after the CPS 3000)
- Enough air for more than two complete shots per tank of air (depending on the pressures regulated to)
- Air couplers used for filling air tank and to power other air-powered devices (input and slightly regulated output)
- Large 1" internal diameter for high flow
- Handle on gun part is detachable and adjustable
- Ball valve with torque arm for ease of use
- Storage bags
- Potentially a rotating nozzle selector depending on how everything works
- Potentially a water balloon launcher attachment or modification

As you can see, I am addressing many issues at once by not only making a CAP system, but also making it work as well as possible. I've had months to think over situations that we'll be put in with this water gun, and this won't only be a water gun as you can see.

The price for all of these advantages however is expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if I had spent $200 to get most of these parts. A few of the more expensive parts I already had in my possession, namely the compressed air tank and frame backpack, cutting cost significantly.

I've written enough for right now, so wait for the pictures and post your questions and comments. I'm mainly posting this before I build to possibly get a few new ideas and also to tell everyone about my planned water gun. To put it simply, I can't keep this a secret any longer. :)

ben@sscentral.org / Please read this before emailing or PMing me

Do not ask me water gun questions by email or PM. Please post the question at the forum. Private questions and suggestions are welcome by PM and email. Also, I do not sell or buy water guns online.

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radman
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Post by radman » Tue May 30, 2006 11:55 pm

I am new so don't chew me up but how would it work exactly. I mean would it work on co2 pushing the water out or what.
Radman

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Wed May 31, 2006 12:18 am

Hmm...you dropped some big hints about this in a thread from about half a year ago, and then you mentioned your CAP again in "Reviving the Regional War."

I've been thinking about similar things, but none of the potential concepts (redundant phrase there) are practical in any sense. The closest weapon I've considered detailing is my version of the 41WL or just a standard APWL, but that turned into the now-ditched MT idea. I've also considered a WBL with a plunger and pressure release holes, but I'm not into WBLs that much, so it doesn't appeal to me.

Good luck with your design, though...not that I expect it to do poorly by any means. I know Duxburian hinted that the RM might build some CAPs before the Regional War, but I don't know how that's going...

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DX
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Post by DX » Wed May 31, 2006 1:47 am

I did? I might have said I was thinking about attempting one, but with reservations. CAPs are extremely expensive, and ill-suited to our fast-paced wars. Plus, by the end of this week, I will be literally broke. The 41WL, MS Douchenator [3rd generation APOL], Deathcannon I, N00b Killer II, and other ideas will have to wait until I have money to fund their construction.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Wed May 31, 2006 1:55 am

I thought you stated the potential possession of CAPs in "Reviving the Regional War," but I guess you just meant that somebody might bring one. Sorry about the confusion.

I didn't know dekard had built the only CAP at the time you posted what people have these days, but since I now know that, I'll just assume that we're working toward them. If Ben is building one, then that's always a good sign...

How close is the APWL to being constructed? I understand that you might be somewhat broke at this point, but you didn't list that in your last post as being postponed...maybe that's partly why you won't have much money left. As always, good luck with the APWL, and I hope it gets some use in the Regional War.

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:47 pm

This water gun has been completed for the most part. We've got a few changes planned already.

Drenchenator and I just got back from doing a few tests on this water gun and a few things already are quite apparent from our tests:

- We need to install a ball valve and another pressure gauge due to design errors. We thought that the regulator's pressure was outlet pressure when in reality it was inlet pressure. The extra ball valve allows us to refill the water gun while the tank still is pressurized. We had thought that the regulator would give us the option to completely disengage the pressure on the water tank, and it does not from what I am seeing right now.

- Initially I had felt balance would be a problem, but the balance is fine. The weight also does not bother me much. The real problem is moving under things. This water gun is far too tall. Some of our neighbors really were giving us funny looks as we tested this.

- This water gun is far too powerful unregulated. Due to our lack of an outlet pressure gauge, we tested mostly with a complete regulator bypass. Our first pressurized attempt resulted in the tubing bursting off the barbs, and the backpack nearly twisting out of my hands (it was very much a water rocket). After reinforcement of the tubing at the barbs, we tried a regulated test with less water and less pressure with a 3/8" nozzle, which worked great.

We tried a 60 PSI riot blast after that, and this was where the danger was obvious - I could not hold the water gun steady. There was so much water exiting the nozzle that I literally could not keep steady and I was spinning. Drenchenator tried to get a picture, but had to move out of the way when it became obvious that something was not working as intended. My other brother took a shot time statistic - 2.26 seconds. I designed this water gun for at least 8 liters of capacity, and in reality there likely are more than 8 liters of water held. Doing the math, we're getting 3.5 - 3.7 l/s of output, or approximately 120 - 125X of output. That is not meant for water guns, rather rockets. I can only imagine how dangerous this would have been had we used more than 60 PSI.

Right now we're taking a break from the testing. I promise to get pictures soon. I realize that there's probably less talk about this due to my lack of pictures, but we'll get them as soon as we find our memory card reader. If we can't, we'll take some images with another digital camera.

ben@sscentral.org / Please read this before emailing or PMing me

Do not ask me water gun questions by email or PM. Please post the question at the forum. Private questions and suggestions are welcome by PM and email. Also, I do not sell or buy water guns online.

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:52 pm

Congratulations on completion, at least, and I hope you figure out how to use the weapon for battle practicality. Even if that proved impossible, it could become a type of turret weapon--it gives a ton of recoil and needs quite a bit of water. Its functionality makes it seem like a water cannon, but with far more power. Approximately what was the range of the shot, if you managed to measure it?

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:05 pm

No distance was taken, but I just strided the riot blast and we were getting at least 25 feet. Most had dried up already, so don't quote me on that.

The water gun was designed explicitly to be used. We were just testing and wanted to see the potential of this water gun (which I find hilarious actually). This is the most practical weapon I have with excellent capacity, power, and distance, of course sacrificing a bit of mobility (which I do not mind at all). There will be no pumping for at least two shots, and those are two 8 liter shots. That's practical.

The 3/8" nozzle had excellent shot time and excellent distance. I'd say that had at least 55 feet of distance and that nozzle was just what I had lying around. I'd say that with a smaller conical nozzle, this would easily get over 60 feet. The design is not for distance however.

Edit: Just to clear up a potential misconception, the recoil only was on the riot blast shot and the accident. Using a nozzle at a regulated pressure operated normally with no more recoil than a normal homemade water gun would have.

Edit again: Images will be available momentarily.

Third edit: Images are being emailed to me right now. Drenchenator also took a bit of the riot blast hit because I spun nearly 270 degrees and has told me that being hit by that is nearly like being slapped very hard... interesting. Another reason not to use the maximum power riot blast.

Fourth edit: Images from before testing available here: http://www.sscentral.org/images/supercap/
Last edited by SSCBen on Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ben@sscentral.org / Please read this before emailing or PMing me

Do not ask me water gun questions by email or PM. Please post the question at the forum. Private questions and suggestions are welcome by PM and email. Also, I do not sell or buy water guns online.

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:38 pm

Whew...that's pretty impressive, if I say so myself. I would imagine the size and weight could become a problem, but it's a good thing you're using a frame backpack. You could try making the backpack element of the weapon shorter by using wider PVC, but I don't know what the side effects of doing so would be--probably less pressure resistance. I can see why a person would think balance might be a problem, but it's good to know that it isn't.

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:38 pm

The tubing burst off the barbs once again, causing the water gun to again turn into a rocket before we even fired it. This time it caused some damage to the water gun during the impact with the wall. It'll be in repair for at most a week depending on what else I am doing. During that time I'll be looking for a superior way to attach the tubing because tubing barbs obviously are not cutting it. I'll also be modifying the design to make it easier to release the pressure and possible for a single person as well as to make the gun a little more salvagable in a worst case scenario.

In the original design, the pressure can only be released via the filling valve and the gun's valve, both of which we were reluctant to use in our garage (especially given that the gun's valve without the nozzle has far too much recoil). I intend to add another safety release valve that is easy to access from the back of the gun. I also intend to add more pipe clearance to certain parts that broke so that more can be salvaged if a part breaks.

This is actually extremely disappointing because I had been working for quite some time on this water gun and I have to rebuild a substantial part of it due to damage. Luckily, I do have plenty of money, but that's no reason to break your water gun. There should not be too much delay during the repair.

As for what's broken, it's mainly the parts connected to the pressure tank. Both male threaded PVC parts snapped in half and there was little damage to anything else. The water tank we believe is completely salvagable, but we might have to do some unusual PVC work and try actual PVC welding to repair it. The remainder must be completely rebuilt because I did not give enough clearance to certain parts, which is not a problem because it is largely cheap parts except for the check valve.

ben@sscentral.org / Please read this before emailing or PMing me

Do not ask me water gun questions by email or PM. Please post the question at the forum. Private questions and suggestions are welcome by PM and email. Also, I do not sell or buy water guns online.

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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:18 am

I hadn't spotted this thread....

I have a few plans for using regulators and stuff for a CAP homemade. I was thinking more along the lines of a 10-12L backpack, and an air tank made of more PVC - kept at 2-3x the intended use pressure.

A riot blast at 100x + would be devastating - if one could control it. Being rather large, strong, and without much sense of danger (I have half the nerve endings most people do - therefore I'm fairly immune to pain), I'd like to attempt.

But then again, I've never dealt with more than 30x.

Seeing the pictures - I'd suggest either a larger ID backpack, or two or more tubes making up the backpack.
Last edited by joannaardway on Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:52 pm

I'd agree with you on the water tank size. This setup has approximately 8.5 liters of water capacity. Believe it or not, that seems to be low after my use of the water gun. I am considering upgrading the tank to something like 10 liters, possibly even more.

The output is far too high due to the force from the chamber (for example, a 1/4" nozzle emptied the tank in about 20 to 25 seconds, which is twice my expected value). I'm thinking about pressurizing the air tank to 120 PSI, but operating the water gun at 30 PSI. Due to the large ID, the force on the water is extremely great even at a seemingly normal pressure such as 60 PSI.

I'm rather strong myself, but I was extremely surprised by the amount of thrust the nozzle had. Next time I fire for a video, I will keep the gun towards my center to reduce the amount of torque and hopefully prevent me from spinning. That and bracing myself is just able to do. Of course, this time I will anticipate the recoil, and that might have a large effect...

Changes planned:

- Larger water tank to increase capacity. Likely this will mean making it longer or using multiple tanks, likely the length because I can't afford another tank at the moment (future upgrade?).

- Use of steel pipe for the parts connecting to the air tank. This would greatly increase strength to prevent the cracks created in a threaded adaptor from the impact with the wall. It also will make the system more easily upgradeable and changeable. Of course, I do sacrifice a bit of weight, but if weight was an issue I likely would scale down this project greatly.

- Designing the top of the water chamber to take a hit - this essentially means use more than one threaded fitting, using a metal pipe nipple in-between. among other things I'll try out.

- Use of a flexible air hose as opposed to rigid pipe.

- Installation of an easily accessible "dry" emergency release valve. Both valves to remove pressure would have emptied some or all of the water.

- Installation of a shut-off valve to allow for multiple shots and more safety.

- Installation of a pressure gauge to tell outlet pressure. Again, this stems from points I brought up earlier about the regulator's gauge being inlet pressure.

Related upgrades:

- Water balloon launcher attachment will be completed. The idea is to power the water balloon launcher by the air output and attach it to the top of the handle of the water gun. This will also allow for a tank pressure gauge to be visible on the user end. Good upgrade. Of course, this will be a simple water balloon launcher. Drenchenator is planning a more sophisticated and far better version for upgrade later.

- Improved nozzle system. Some of the nozzles I had were not drilled very cleanly. I'm also going to look into a conical nozzle for this and potentially a nozzle selector design I made earlier. There also might potentially be a nozzle storage feature on the water gun part if my selector idea is not created.

- Installation of storage bags, mainly intended for water balloons.

ben@sscentral.org / Please read this before emailing or PMing me

Do not ask me water gun questions by email or PM. Please post the question at the forum. Private questions and suggestions are welcome by PM and email. Also, I do not sell or buy water guns online.

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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:58 am

I don't feel there is much more I can say at the moment.

The changes seem good plans. I don't know exactly what performance you are getting, so I can't be much more precise.
"Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore

"So many people have come and gone, their faces fade as the years go by. Yet I still recall as I wander on, as clear as the sun in the summer sky" - More than a feeling, Boston

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radman
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Post by radman » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:55 pm

Not to be mean but I still don't know how a cap works. Can I Please get an answear. :confused:
Radman

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:18 pm

How is that being mean? In fact, I seriously doubt the majority of members here know how CAP soakers function. I'm not an expert, but I have the basic idea; check out m15399's explanation. It doesn't go into very much detail, but you should get the gist of the setup.

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