New WBL

Threads related to water balloon launchers.
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C-A_99
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Re: New WBL

Post by C-A_99 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:38 am

I apologize for the inactivity and lack of progress, but other stuff has progressively been getting busy. I've no plans to drop the project either and the season is coming up so now would be a good time to work on some more.

The breech has been cut into the pipe but thats about it. After some brief consideration, I was thinking that a cover sliding system would be easier to build and work with and wouldn't demand as much redundant barrel length. I've decided to drop the idea of the hopper system since the increase in loading time won't be improved enough anyway. Its late to be making basic design changes, but operating that bolt will be a pain since the O-rings will encounter much friction when opening the bolt, but at the time, I was skeptical as to the feasibility and ease of building other system. (and wanted the hopper bolt action system that badly)

I have no plans for changing the rest of the design, but eventually I may have to as problems arise. As of now, duct taping the pump to the PC is pretty much all I can do (or have thought of) to mount it on, though I could look into using a wood board like Ben did on his first LPD (which I've still been unable to assemble but will have to work with later, and can't find any camp showers), but I'm not sure how that'll handle the pump.

Has anyone worked with mounted WBL pumps? This one won't be terribly easy to operate, but thats one of the consequences of the design. As a matter of fact, how far have others come along with mobile 1-man WBLs in general? (other than the compact douchenators, those can't be loaded up while someone is running)

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Loserface300
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Re: New WBL

Post by Loserface300 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:44 am

im wondering....

will this be able to fire without the WB brusting even before it gets out? they are rather fragile....

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Silence
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Re: New WBL

Post by Silence » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:59 am

That's what sabots are for. DX used Pringles cans for 3" PVC; WaterWolf makes his own.

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C-A_99
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Re: New WBL

Post by C-A_99 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:53 am

The sabots I use (and am going to use for the 50mm) are just cups trimmed out to fit into the barrel. Same as the base of WaterWolf's sabots but no fancy shell holders. Pringles cans scratch up the barrel, and if you use tape to prevent that, the edge has to be trimmed, sanded, or dremeled.

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adronl
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Re: New WBL

Post by adronl » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:26 pm

Quick question has anyone built a WBL with a built in permanent water balloon cup that does not fire out of the barrel and need to be retrieved

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Silence
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Re: New WBL

Post by Silence » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:54 am

No.

Think about it: how would you stop it from exiting the barrel? You could place a rim on the end, but the impulse from the sabot hitting the rim would probably break something, quickly. The other option is to use a spring or something to slow the sabot down over several inches of distance – but that shortens the length of barrel that can be used for actually accelerating the projectile.

I'd suggest tying the back of the sabot to a cord and hooking up the cord to something on the inside of the barrel. The sabot would shoot out and then fall down (like normal), but at least you wouldn't lose it. :cool:

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adronl
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Re: New WBL

Post by adronl » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:33 pm

I like the small rope/cord/string idea sounds good actually but I wonder if it may decrease the velocity slightly. I am fairly confident that I can figure something out and hopefully it will be successful. I think that a permanent cup can be permanently fixed with a coupling at the end as long as I can find one with a thick enough lip.the measurements would have to be just right.

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C-A_99
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Re: New WBL

Post by C-A_99 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:53 pm

I'd say that the ideal method is to have it on a string deep inside the launcher. The string should not interfere with the seal so it must be inside. It's length obviously must be at least that of the barrel, but to be safe, twice the length of the barrel should work better.

The disadvantage to this is that it still requires some retrieval from the string. If you have another sabot on hand, you can simply use that. Plus a "permanent" sabot needs to be built stronger than "disposable" ones. Given how many water balloon launches you can pull off in a war (which can be covered by making more sabots), it's not worth using a "permanent" sabot IMO.

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C-A_99
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Re: New WBL

Post by C-A_99 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:32 am

Image

Image

More progress shown here. I will need to fix up the assembly and improve the breech loading. If anyone has better suggestions for the breech, please let me know. For now, I may have to glue both rubber couplers together, sand down the pipe, add more lube, see if I can add a handle somehow, and hope it works.

The bike pump will be mounted below the PC. The blowgun trigger will be placed to the side. Needless to say, the whole setup will not be very friendly to lefties.

Tracing back to the roots, this launcher was the original inspiration for my design. The concept remains the same, but with everything in one mobile package The issues is, I've never been able to figure out how the breech was done this whole time, and constantly resorted to improvising my own methods, all of which are likely to be unreliable or inferior.

So as I said, if anyone wants to suggest anything for the breech, I'm listening. It's got to work with what I already have built though. (i.e. I'm not going to use a male/female adapter and a threaded endcap/plug to load this; it takes too long and the design won't allow for it now but I might do that for another launcher)

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adronl
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Re: New WBL

Post by adronl » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:05 am

It looks like they used a coupler for the size of pipe they were using for the barrel. It is modified though you need a good file and a good drill rasp to remove the ridge from the center of the coupler the coupler looks very large though compared to most pressure rated couplers. I think they may have used drainage pipe for the rotating part that opens the breach. One problem is I don't want to assume from the accents but it may have been made in the UK different sizes but I did notice some funny match ups the other day at Lowes. I'll see if I can figure it out if I make is there but it may be a combination the barrel being drainage pipe not even sch40 the really thin stuff for the and then pressure rated for the breach and the pressure tanks. If you are stuck to the rubber then I hope it works but that is m best guess so far.
Last edited by adronl on Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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C-A_99
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Re: New WBL

Post by C-A_99 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:49 pm

By drainage pipe, do you mean cellcore? I looked at some sch. 30 pipe and it has the same ID as sch. 40 and probably sch. 80.

There's also some vent pipe, the really thin type with holes in them. However, they seem to only come in sizes larger than 3" and I haven't been able to compare them to PVC/DWV.

The couplers don't appear to be that large. In either case, I can use the rubber couplers instead if I can find the pipe used in the middle. (after all, the couplers are just to hold the middle pipe in place) A possible solution is to take a sch. 30 3" pipe and cut part of it out so that it can be snapped onto the existing pipe. However, PVC isn't that flexible, and it may not seal. It also probably wasn't the way it was done in that launcher.


Edit: After another look at that old Aqualabs launcher, I noticed that the same cartridge they use could work for automatic and bolt action magazine fed WBL's. Given parts are not a problem, the PVC shells will protect the sabot and balloon from getting squeezed out in the magazine, while a bolt operates back and forth, pushing sabot and balloon loads into the barrel. There should be a notch in the barrel for the seal to stop against, and a shell ejection system will be needed as well.

Just a thought I'd throw out. I'm having enough trouble with my launcher as is, but I thought I'd throw that out in case anyone has the resources to build an auto. Even bolt action WBL's have been a long s
truggle for the best builders here and I don't think anyone has been successful with that.

Edit again: I found a tightening coupler for 2" pipe. Each end has a rubber seal and a big ringlike piece that threads onto the coupler. The inside maintains constant diameter, then goes out about 4mm to give room for the seal. The portion of the coupler that's of lower diameter is just long enough to cover the hole, while leaving a little extra room which will be filled up with weather strips, tape, or some other seal.

However, on the negative side, it seems that none of the home improvement stores around here carry pressure rated pipe above 2" anymore. I got pressure rated 3" pipe from a nearby Home Depot for the WBL a few years ago, but now it's all gone, meaning I won't see any pressure rated fittings either. Looks like ACE hardware is the place to go for those now, if they carry it.
Last edited by C-A_99 on Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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C-A_99
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Re: New WBL

Post by C-A_99 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:32 pm

Update.

Image

Image

Image

The breech is pretty much finished. The piece I used was some sort of 2" coupler which works by tightening seals on both ends after attaching said pipe. It also fits great over the pipe and is just long enough for the ridiculously long cut that was made on the breech. (it was too long because I was following the old breech load plan before realizing it wouldn't work)

I apologize for not taking pics of the breech closed, but it simply slides over.

Next up is to get the valve and pipes welded together to connect the PC and barrel. I also need to attach the pump and get the schrader valve connected. I should have used a different set of fittings to connect the valve, but instead, I got the wrong fittings. (at the time, I couldn't find proper schrader valves with threads) I can still get it to work by drilling a hole and threading the valve in. (since the valve will tap the hole automatically)

I've also cut up and reassembled most of what was my Douchenator. The reconfigured launcher is now over-under, and has a smaller PC. The tire valve should work much better, all thanks to ACE hardware. Those hardware stores do a good job at providing materials that home improvement stores constantly fail to provide. (though home improvement stores are generally prefered for lower prices and more materials for raw building)

Some thoughts on names. I always called this one the sniper launcher and my old one the Douchenator. Well now, it's no longer a Douchenator, and just "sniper launcher" doesn't sound that good so I'll stick to the old, long names based on a dumb little system I created to name them.

(Pneumatic Waterballoon lauNcher - PWN series)
This launcher: PWN312BS
What was the Douchenator (whose short name will simply be D2): PWN323MB

But no one likes long names. We may end up simply calling them the "50mm" or "76mm", who knows.

Edit: It's PWN312BS... I can't even get the names right myself. 0_o
Last edited by C-A_99 on Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Silence
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Re: New WBL

Post by Silence » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:11 pm

Looks pretty refined. I didn't know that those sliding breech things were pressure-rated, but if they are, they sound perfect. I remember reading about the AquaLabs 3.something water balloon launcher some time back and being struck by the effort and expense needed to build his heavy, bulky breech. This is quite an improvement.

How do you charge the PWN312RS? If I recall correctly, Falcon's one used a portable air compressor.

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C-A_99
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Re: New WBL

Post by C-A_99 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:47 pm

Since the air travels along the path of least resistance, a material's ability to stand pressure means nothing after the valve. (hence the use of drainage thinwall and cellcore pipes for the barrel to make the launcher lighter, but 2" pipe doesn't come in cellcore) Thus, even though the breech's seals aren't that good (if you cover the barrel and blow through the other end, air will come out of the breech), they are good enough that the air has more trouble going through it than pushing the projectile out.

My only available compressor attaches like a bike pump, so all my launchers have schrader valves. However, the compressor is slow and overheats in a few minutes of use, so we stick to the pumps. There are 2 pumps, one of them is a more expensive, higher volume, larger pump with a pressure gauge, used for the PWN323MB, while the one for the PWN312BS is a simpler one without a pressure gauge. (since there's already a gauge onboard)

My original plan was to attach the pump onboard so one person doesn't have to lug 2 parts around, and is more mobile while pumping. However, this became a problem as pumping to just 30 PSI became much more difficult with one hand as opposed to 2. This isn't your average pressurized reservoir launcher to power up, but on the other hand, PR guns have smaller pumps that make it easier to build pressure by hand (though slowly). I might have to look into such a pump. But for now I'm going to have to detach the pump and use it seperately, perhaps putting a strap on it to make it easier to carry and so it doesn't have to be detatched from the launcher when firing. (which wastes pressure and is annoying to have to do)

Right now, the 323 (PC shortened to roughly 1.5') gets about 1.5 to 1.9 PSI per pump while the 312 almost always gets exactly 1 PSI per pump. (less when handheld since pumps aren't as full)

Another adjustment I might have to make is to shorten the barrel, so that the launcher is more friendly to lower pressure launches. I don't know how shortening will affect high pressure launches, but on some 20 PSI shots, the sabot doesn't even exit the barrel, and the range of the balloons seems to get cut down. (gets about 70-90ft I'm guessing)

The problem with the Aqualabs launcher 3 breech is that every load requires shells, and the balloon and sabot must pass through a rough spot in the barrel. There were no modified sprinkler valves back then (even though you could hit the on and off switch to open the valve, but it doesnt perform as well), and the need to grind out a 2" tee so that it fitted over the barrel was extremely troublesome; definitely a sanding and filing nightmare if you don't have a Dremel.

The design that inspired this launcher, I'd say, is the best one up so far, but I couldn't find the pipes needed so I ended up with this. I'd say that I'm lucky that it turned out as well as it did, considering how poorly it was planned. My original intent of having an onboard pump that can quickly pressurize the launcher is out now, but I may come up with another solution later.

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C-A_99
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Re: New WBL

Post by C-A_99 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:12 am


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