Challenge: Achieve a distance of 70 ft.

Threads about how water guns work and other miscellaneous water gun technology threads.
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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:08 am

But no stream is ever straight...

I've written an excel spreadsheet that actually calculates range incredibly effectively. It's currently intended for water balloon launchers and similar, but I can re-write it to also do water streams. (It currently calculates per 0.01 sec, but I might improve that, and also its use of drag coefficents)

I might do some rewriting and add some more graphs over the next day or two, then I'll upload it to my hosting to allow others access to it, but I'd like to know that there's some interest in me doing so.

You need to know all sorts of things*, but I imagine that anything that's hard to find I provide on the sheet.

*Speed in m/s
angle in degrees
height in m
drag coefficent
expansion factor (my own creation - I'm also building in something that will automatically come up with the theorical maximum)
Mass of projectile (this could be the tricky part - I think I have to break the entire stream into individual drops, but incorporate Reynold's number somewhere... if it's released this will probably be an approximation)
Last edited by joannaardway on Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Water balloon launchers is not possessive.
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DX
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Post by DX » Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:35 am

That's why I measure range the old-fasioned way: Lay out the tape measure, align the tip of the gun's nozzle to 0, and fire away. I mark intervals of 10 with other objects to make them more noticable from the shooting position.

I don't particularly trust mathematical calculation of range. In fact, I trust it for everything but range.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:50 pm

There will always be variables that will mess up your calculations. Hopefully, with your already thorough list of problematic factors, the margin of error will be reduced. I can't wait to test out your work, if only to prove it wrong :p . But who knows--maybe it will turn out well.

Is this a prototype for your tentative processor in Cerberus? If so, I would really like to test it out! Of course, it might be hard implementing an Excel design into a processor.

Yes, I only measure range the old-fashioned way. However, this can estimate range and compare streams of different width, given that the other variables are constants. Things like that, and just a rough estimate of what you'll have, can be useful. We should at least support this idea.

Hannibal
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Post by Hannibal » Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:16 pm

A month ago I tried to calculate the muzzle velocity of some of my soakers using Physics. Of course, I did not factor in the huge part air resistance would play. My CPS 2000 should shoot 120 feet were there no air resistance! It was at that time I calulated my CPS 2000's range to be 54 feet. I had also taken the range of my CPS 1700 to calculate its muzzle velocity, but decided not to when I realized my equation was flawed due to air resistance. One question, what if you shot a soaker in a room on earth which was a vacuum? Would the stream be a perfect stream, never breaking up, since there would be no air? Or would something else happen?
Last edited by Hannibal on Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:32 pm

See, this is yet another example of the problems with calculations for things as simple as soaker streams (no offense, Hannibal).

What is so hard about using simple tools to get important measurements? Measuring the volume, an easy task, can get you the reservoir capacity, the pump capacity, the PC capacity (needed to find the PSI, unless you have a cheap PSI meter), etc. Range is measured is easily enough, too. Of course, it might be hard to measure the muzzle velocity without a speed gun, but that isn't too important a measurement.

Do you think the soaker greats use complex formulas and equipment to take their measurements? You must be kidding! I don't see why we have to make this any more complex than it is.

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joannaardway
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Post by joannaardway » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:47 pm

The range calculator will be attached to a wbl muzzle velocity calculator.

Data from this will be programmed into Cerberus to allow it to work efficently.

A water gun fired in a perfect vacuum would be impressive but very short ranged - the stream would be pulled apart by the low pressures.

What you would need to do would be fire either liquid helium, or fire through helium to get better range.

Helium is very unreactive, so has little friction between the stream and the air.
"Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore

"So many people have come and gone, their faces fade as the years go by. Yet I still recall as I wander on, as clear as the sun in the summer sky" - More than a feeling, Boston

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:03 pm

I haven't taken chemistry yet, so I'll just agree with what joannaardway said about helium and water. However, I completely understand and agree with her point about the lower pressure breaking up the stream.

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:45 pm

About 5 minutes ago, the newly completed Supercannon II achieved a range of about 73 feet.

Videos, pictures, and more information to come soon...

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:21 am

That's one incredible statistic, so congratulations. Is the challenge over now, or does it still stand for contenders?

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:38 am

Second place still is good. ;)

The challenge is still on. The main idea was to challenge yourself, not to win anything.

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DX
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Post by DX » Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:28 am

Of course the challenge is still on! But for me it is a lot more difficult. I plan on being the first to debut a 70ft shooting gun in a major engagement. It doesn't take too much to design and build such a gun for fun, it is another matter to design and build one for direct action in not-so-friendly terrain. Making a battle practical long range gun sounds easy, but not so when you are thrown into my world, where what works and what doesn't changes constantly. Evolution of tactics has virtually eliminated the usefulness of powerful water balloon launchers, forts, scouting, even water balloons themselves. You don't actually see water balloons on the local battlefields anymore-both teams ditched them several months ago! However, range is still extremely important, but the way to deliver it remains in flux. Water cannons are currently hot, although not one has yet debuted. I honestly have no idea how they will do, or if 70ft range will be worth it off that platform. We shall have to see.
Mess With the Best, Get Soaked Like the Rest!

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:14 pm

The only change I would make to Supercannon II to make it be used better in a battle is to upgrade it into a CAP system. That is easy given that the air system on the current water gun is removable and replaceable. I'd recommend that completely. Regulated at 40 PSI, this would still get excellent range even with the half-inch nozzle. Of course, anyone who is not out of their mind will use something smaller.

Refilling is unusual, but not difficult. All you need is a small mallet and a ramrod of the correct length at your hose... shove the rod down and start smacking it. I've marked on the ramrod where I want to stop pushing so I have a 50% air, 50% water ratio. The good thing too is that with an upgraded CAP system, you can push the piston down all of the way to have double capacity!

I think the 70 foot range will be intimidating, but not really that useful. I would feel pretty confident hitting a stationary target from 70 feet. But a moving target would be tough, especially given that it takes time for the water to reach 70 feet. Of course, the streams of other water guns take time to move the full 40 feet as well... so I don't know if the time will make much of a difference because I probably already compensate for it. So actually, I don't know how useful 70 foot range would be. For stationary targets or "sniping" this would work great. It would take skill to hit a moving target with anything from a distance however.
Last edited by SSCBen on Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DX
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Post by DX » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:28 pm

You could calculate the dodge time. For example, my normal reaction time is ~.23 of a second [~.09 when in the zone], so you could figure out if I would have enough time to dodge from certain ranges and nozzles with certain stream speed. This is mostly for fun, since in real battle ranges seem to shrink and there's cover and wind.

I think 70ft would only be nice until specific counters can be made for it. Intimidation disappears when one knows a good counter or two. 70ft delivered in a smaller package would remain more effective, since range counters can be double countered, bringing back their importance. The battle practicality of the gun can factor into how well a counter can be re-countered. Or if a double counter can be re-countered, and at that point you're either fighting a real general or a psychotic genius. Do I think too much about these things? Sometimes I suspect that I do... :rolleyes:
Mess With the Best, Get Soaked Like the Rest!

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:34 pm

Any one else completed this challenge? It's been over a week since my completion. I was at least hoping there would be a copy-cat design out there. ;)

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