Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

[NHdad]

Thanks aEx155. And I appreciate the quick response.


I'm intrigued by the smaller conical nozzle link. I wish they provided more dimensions. Based on your recommendations, I think I'll try drilling a very small opening in a PVC end cap. A little bit of experimentation there will help me get an idea of what works.

Can I make the endcap nozzle internally connical using hardened clay glued into place? Or something else?

For length, I may fit 4" pipe on the outside of the truck, and paint it black with silver ends to look like fire hoses. I'm going to have to look into the mount - something like I've seen in my basement I guess.

Lever valve: bad term from my inexperience. Ball valve with a lever handle - easier for small hands to open.

I think you're right about the turning of the gate valve being too much. I'll probably go with something like in the PVC ball valves your homemade, or the ball valve with lever handle. I'll have them try to use whatever we find in the store before I purchase.

I'm going out to Lowes now. But I hope the suggestions keep rolling in! I'm not too worried about picking up extra parts as I do this project - I'm hoping that I can work on my first homemade for me.

And I have a mental deadline of July 20th - the powerwheel show - so I'll be working away at this until then.

[aEx155]

'm intrigued by the smaller conical nozzle link. I wish they provided more dimensions. Based on your recommendations, I think I'll try drilling a very small opening in a PVC end cap. A little bit of experimentation there will help me get an idea of what works.

Can I make the endcap nozzle internally connical using hardened clay glued into place? Or something else?

From what I've seen, they're usually for 3/4" pipe, and the nozzle end is 1/4" opening, so that's pretty large. You'll use water pretty quickly with that size.

For length, I may fit 4" pipe on the outside of the truck, and paint it black with silver ends to look like fire hoses. I'm going to have to look into the mount - something like I've seen in my basement I guess.

Basically, try to get as many 4" pipes as you can and still have them as long as possible. It's kind of hard to imagine what we're working with since I can't find any dimensions or pictures online (it would be nice if we had those, especially the dimensions of the storage area you mentioned). It would be easy to incorporate the 4" pipe into the fire truck look; just make them look like water tanks (which they are, ironically).

I think you're right about the turning of the gate valve being too much. I'll probably go with something like in the PVC ball valves your homemade, or the ball valve with lever handle. I'll have them try to use whatever we find in the store before I purchase.

I'm going out to Lowes now. But I hope the suggestions keep rolling in! I'm not too worried about picking up extra parts as I do this project - I'm hoping that I can work on my first homemade for me.

You could use the gate valve to set the upper flow rate for the water gun so that it isn't used up too quickly, so it's still a possibility.

PVC ball valves aren't the easiest thing to turn, but if you lubricate it with the right stuff, it can make all the difference. I would go with PVC simply for the price and weight; from experience I haven't found any difference between them and brass.

Since you already have LRT, I would suggest building a CPS gun as your first homemade; you're already getting experience with this, so it should be no problem. The only thing I would suggest is that you get some more LRT to layer onto the LRT you have already so that you get better range (that is, or course, if you want; it's no entirely necessary.)

EDIT:



Here's the diagram I said I would make.

Where it says "LRT and barbs go here", those are supposed to be barbs, not pipe; the tees are supposed to be 1/2" slip x slip x threaded, with the center threaded for the barbs. Does it make sense?

For the hose quick-disconnect, You can just have a regular threaded hose connection; If you have a quick-disconnect it's easier to remove and connect the hose since you just push/pull to connect/disconnect. I thought it would be easier.

[SSCBen]

***Does this mean that I am working with 3/4 inch diameter tubing for the rest of my parts? Should I reduce at all internally in the piping, or stay consistently ¾ in?

I don't think you understand the difference between outer diameter and inner diameter. Take a look at this page to see the difference. Generally the diameter figures tossed around here are inner diameter figures. That's because the water will flow through the inner part of the tube, not the outer part. The inner diameter of the tubing is 3/8 inches so you can use a 3/8 inch tubing barb to attach it.

With that being said LRT breaks the rules a bit because it can stretch. I've fit 1/2 inch and 5/8 inch tubing barbs into LRT. That will give you more flow because of the larger cross sectional area, so it's usually advantageous.

***** Since this is intended for young 3-7 year olds to simulate a fire truck experience, not for water wars, I am happy maintaining a small stream of water that can go, say, 30 feet for as long as possible. The emphasis here, for me, is on a quality but small stream, that can visibly hit a tree, stop sign, or some other target, for as long as possible. For this design, then, I think the internal piping should be consistently smaller than is typically found in the homemades on this forum. Any ideas?

1/2 inch pipe is usually the smallest PVC pipe size you will find. Unless you use vinyl tubing for the water gun you really won't be able to get smaller tubing, and there's no reason to. You can adjust range by adjusting the size of the nozzle. A relatively small nozzle should easily get 30 feet of range with a lot of run time.

I do not know what size tubing barb I need, and if it should be reducing. At McCarren-Carr I'm overwhelmed with acetal barbed tube tees and plastic barbed tube adapters of all shapes and sizes. Any proven parts? Would it be better to go to Lowes? What sizing should I stick to?

The SuperCPS article explains what you need. You don't even need to follow that. Do what I did: go to Lowes with the tubing and see which one fits in it.

How to string the LRT tubes together in series is also a question that I have. With PVC, I understand how to cut small pieces of pipe to connect several tees together. I think that's the way people generally go, right? And there is a tee that I can find at Lowes or McCarren-Carr that has a male barbed end?

Yes, that's how PVC hooks together.

I haven't seen tees like that either. The closest thing would be the nylon barbed tees sold at Lowes and other home improvement stores. Every end of the tee is a tubing barb.

If that's the case, I need advice for what size PVC tubing to use if I'm using ¾ inch LRT. I gather I need to consider the PCI rating of the PVC as well - does anyone have that at their fingertips? I would probably just get something rated at or above 100PCI.

The pressure rating is reported on the pipe usually. If there is no visible pressure rating it is safe to assume the pipe is not pressure rated.

The LRT you ordered operates at less than 40 PSI at its peak and about 22 PSI the rest of the time so nothing special is needed. 1/2 inch PVC often has pressure ratings exceeding 300 PSI.

Since I'm combining the water gun with the power wheel, I'm hoping to get away with using the powerwheel as the protective chamber. ****Since it's not an APH design, am I correct that the PVC would just serve as a protective case? If so, then placing the LRT series of PCs in the back compartment of the power wheel should serve the same purpose, without adding any additional weight.

PVC as a protective case would be fine. I'd suggest using lighter drain pipe however. Drain pipe and drain pipe fittings are just like regular PVC pipe and fittings but lighter, cheaper, and not meant for pressure.

I still have to saw through a side to gain easy access, but I think I'm looking at an internal space of about 1 foot by 2 feet. That may not be enough storage space, and I may need to go external. Any thoughts on how much storage I may get out of two cubic feet of space? I can visualize about 3 gallons of Hawaiian Punch sitting in there, so I'm guessing that's what I've got for internal storage. How long might that last with the system I'm working with?

You could probably make a 6x3 cell of LRT in 4 inch drain pipe and an 8x4 cell of LRT with that. 3 inch drain pipe would be best for the LRT because the LRT only expands to about 3 inches. Either would be rather excessive. Just fit in what works.

If you don't understand what I mean by cell look at this:

Code: Select all

4 inch pipe

OOOOOO
OOOOOO
OOOOOO

3 inch pipe

OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO

Also, does anyone think it would be better to set up with fewer LRT pipes that can expand the full width, or more LRT pipes set up to expand the smaller 1 foot dimension?

I don't understand what you mean. The LRT you ordered expands in diameter to about 3 inches. In length it will expand about 8 times. Maybe that'll help.

Weight is important. If I go external, can I use something lighter weight than PVC for my protective chamber? I'm thinking 1 gallon plastic bottles of Hawaiian punch. When I go in that direction, I think of Ben's 2L homemade (http://www.sscentral.org/homemade/2l.html). With a similar set up, I could spray paint 10 Hawaiian punch bottles fire hydrant red, put male or female quick connects on the end rather than a nozzle, the opposite quick connect piece on the input end of the fire truck plumbing so that the firemen could go around tapping into water sources wherever they may be.

The drain pipe I mentioned earlier would be great.

To best simulate the fire truck's fire hose, I am looking to use a conical nozzle that was in Ben's link to nozzle basics (http://www.sscentral.org/physics/nozzles.html) -1/2" Size, Npsh Thread, 73 GPM @ 100 PSI Plastic Quick-Flow Stream Nozzle (McCarren-Carr part number 6424T62). *** Will that fit the design? *****

As aEx said, that's rather excessive. It screws onto 1 1/2 inch threads, which is significantly larger than the inner diameter of the LRT.

I'd suggest a simple threaded nozzle like on the APH or SuperCPS.

For the valve, I've been envisioning the lever type through the entire process, but now I'm thinking that since the fire truck has a red plastic circular valve on each side I might replicate that with an actual gate valve or globe valve (I don't know the difference, but I'm thinking I can pick one of from Lowes for cheap because it looks like something from a garden). If I find it's too expensive, I'll go right back to the lever valve. But either way, what size will fit my design based on ¾ inch LRT?

The lever valve would be fine. Try something like in the SuperCPS guide. A 1/2 inch PVC ball valve should be plenty adequate. You could use a 1/2 inch brass ball valve if you want a lever built-in.

Can I make the endcap nozzle internally connical using hardened clay glued into place? Or something else?

Sure, you could make it conical for that reason, but you already said you don't want the highest performance and it really wouldn't make much of a difference at the small diameter of the pipe. Again, I'd suggest a simple endcap nozzle like in SuperCPS.

For the hose quick-disconnect, You can just have a regular threaded hose connection; If you have a quick-disconnect it's easier to remove and connect the hose since you just push/pull to connect/disconnect. I thought it would be easier.

To follow-up on what aEx said with something more specific, go to Lowes and ask for hose quick connect couplers. They should look like the connectors in this picture: http://forums.sscentral.org/attachments ... 1214747414

The part on the bottom off the barbed adapter on the left is one quick connect and the black part right above the small water gun is the quick connect that attaches to the hose.

[NHdad]

Just got back from Lowes, and I had to do some real thinking. Nothing has been built, and I'm going to have to go back to the store, so feel free to tell me to return everything.

I went with 3/4 PVC and parts. My reasons: I thought that it would fill better from the hose if the internal diameter was the same, I thought there would be that much more water in the system, and I thought that it wouldn't make much difference either way for the PCI since I was going to have a small opening for the nozzle at the end anyway. Is that accurate?


For my project, the most important piece to build around was the valve - I needed a valve that the boys to easily turn. The best was a 1/2' double union ball valve ($4.94). I noticed that internally it really had a small opening. So I decided to let that reduction in internal diameter happen at the end, but I went for a harder-to-turn 3/4" PVC threaded ball valve ($3.07) for the input end for the speed/ease of the fill-up water flow. I made sure my five year old could turn it, but figure I'll be supervising the fill-ups for at least this summer anyway. For the end I purchased a female end snap on hose coupling ($4.77). I'm a little worried that the snap on will snap off for a snafu typhoon, but that can easily be adjusted if necessary. I can't go for any other permanent QD set up because our hose water is salty and rusts metal (or fittings/adapters) practically on contact.

The 4" PVC pipe was so heavy. I went with ten feet of 4" solid corrugated pipe ($4.49) - thought it would work, and that appears to have been just what Ben recommended!

One problem is that I couldn't find pieces to "close" the ends. There didn't appear to be any corrugated end caps. The 4" PVC end cap would have looked nice, but it might not be able to be forced on - it certainly didn't look like a clean fit because the corrugated pipe expands beyond the 4" in its waves. I guess I might just mount the corrugated pipe to the sides of the firetruck and leave the ends open. Any ideas for corrugated end caps?

I didn't purchase the bolt for the other end of the LRT. In the postings I've read it just seemed to be listed as "a bolt will work fine". Is there a size/length I should do for my 3/4" LRT?

I bought #8 7/16" - 29/32" hose clamps because it was the smallest one that looked like it would fit - but they were expensive at $1.43 for packages of 2. I bought 4 packs, thinking I'll have four LRT chambers.

I didn't know if I could put threaded parts onto non-threaded PVC pipe. I figured it wasn't best. So I may have bought too many parts on that premise. For example - for the LRT sections the tee will connect to a short piece of 3/4" PVC (how short is the shortest people usually cut these down for connectors?), to a 3/4" slip-on to threaded, to a piece that's 3/4" threaded female hose to 5/8" nylon barb.

If that's correct, should I be using teflon tape for any threaded pieces? If so, how much?

For the PVC connections, I purchased purple primer and black cement. I read that from the PVC basics forum, but have to go back to figure out exactly what I'm doing there.

I found the exact connical nozzle that aEx suggested, and considered it for a long time. The opening still seemed a bit big. I bought a 1/4 x 1/2 plastic hose barb - it seems to look a bit like a nozzle. With the exception of the four 5/8" barb to LRT connections, I intend to have 3/4" piping and connections from the input through to the release valve "trigger". The trigger is 1/2", so I'll adapt that down from 3/4" after the hose portion. From there, I'll do a small piece of 1/2" PVC, a slip on 1/2 inch to threaded connector, and the 1/2 inch threaded to 1/4 hose barb for the nozzle.

How do those dimensions look for my system? Will they have any disasterous effects?

[aEx155]

It looks like you got a lot of parts to work with; that's good, but it's kind of confusing since you're not using the same terms we usually use. Could you provide a picture of your proposed layout? That would help a lot.

From what I can tell, though, so far you have: LRT, corrugated pipe to house the LRT, 5/8" hose barbs for the LRT, hose clamps for the barbs, 3/4" PVC and fittings, and some form of quick-disconnect system.

Responses in same order:

For bolt size: anything that fits inside the LRT nicely and stays there when you tighten the hose clam would be a good size. I don't know what to call it though, so I can't give you an exact size.

Your setup for the PVC tee to LRT sounds good, but it's a bit complicated. See if you can find a 3/4" tee where the sides are slip-on and the center is threaded, so that you can reduce some parts.

Things I'd look at in better detail:

Is the quick-disconnect you have metal or plastic? You said that the water you have rusts thins up easily, but you didn't say whether or not you have plastic. I would reccomend plastic; it's a lot cheaper and they don't leak as much (compared to the metal versions I've tried)

I'm not quite sure black cement is meant for PVC pipe; did it say PVC on the can? When I was in Home Depot the other day I think I read that black cement is for ABS, so I'd double check to be sure.

I have to go, so I'll add more when I'm back from Hope Depot.

P.S. MY 200th POST!!! WOO!!!!

[NHdad]

>See if you can find a 3/4" tee where the sides are slip-on and the center is threaded, so that you can reduce some parts.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will.

>black cement
I just mean the label is black. It does say PVC, and in one package it came with a purple can.

The QD is metal. Good point. I didn't see a plastic one, but I will hunt harder for that part. It only has one thread to pop on and off, and some sort of white plastic that slides to cover up the thread.

For the bolt, I figured I'd have to wait for the LRT to arrive. They said it would ship tomorrow. Then I'll be counting the days from NJ to NH. It will probably go to Chicago or Ohio first. That would drive me crazy.

Pictures. I don't know what you guys use to create such awesome rough schematics. Do you use some special software? Microsoft Paint? I'll see what I can do.

I also might take some photos of the parts when I get a chance.

P.S. - I noticed that you were approaching 200 posts. And quality, helpful ones at that. Two hundred takes some real dedication. I'm approaching 10, and my hobbies usually change too fast for me to work up those kind of numbers.

[aEx155]

http://www.melnor.com/products-quickconnects.php

Those are really good QD; I've tried them and I use them constantly (I'm using them on my homemade right now) so if you can find those (they're at Home Depot) I would go for them. $2 for each part.

As for drawing diagrams, you could always use the PVC designer; it's the one I used for the diagram I posted earlier. Otherwise, MS paint works fine, but try to do your best. MS paint drawings aren't always the best. Personally, I use Paint.NET, but there's really nothing special about it.

It would be nice if you had pictures, so I'll wait for those when you get them.

I noticed that you were approaching 200 posts. And quality, helpful ones at that. Two hundred takes some real dedication. I'm approaching 10, and my hobbies usually change too fast for me to work up those kind of numbers.

Thanks. At least you're dedicated enough to get this done for your kids and that Powerwheels show; most people lose interest when it doesn't work out right the first time.

[SSCBen]

I went with 3/4 PVC and parts. My reasons: I thought that it would fill better from the hose if the internal diameter was the same, I thought there would be that much more water in the system, and I thought that it wouldn't make much difference either way for the PCI since I was going to have a small opening for the nozzle at the end anyway. Is that accurate?

It shouldn't make a significant difference. If you're nozzle will be half the size or smaller than the pipe diameter then the pipes just have to fit your form factor and nothing else.

With that being said, using 3/4 inch pipe is slight waste of money because as I explained earlier, the inner, not outer, diameter of the tubing is what matters for the attachments. 1/2 inch pipe (about 5/8 inch diameter in reality) would have been better because your flow is already limited to 1/2 inch or 5/8 inch tubing barbs.

The 4" PVC pipe was so heavy. I went with ten feet of 4" solid corrugated pipe ($4.49) - thought it would work, and that appears to have been just what Ben recommended!

One problem is that I couldn't find pieces to "close" the ends. There didn't appear to be any corrugated end caps. The 4" PVC end cap would have looked nice, but it might not be able to be forced on - it certainly didn't look like a clean fit because the corrugated pipe expands beyond the 4" in its waves. I guess I might just mount the corrugated pipe to the sides of the firetruck and leave the ends open. Any ideas for corrugated end caps?

I did not use corrugated pipe. I used drain pipe. You can see drain pipe in this picture: http://forums.sscentral.org/attachments ... 1213920428

It's basically the same thing as normal PVC pipe but thinner, lighter, and cheaper. It is not corrugated and the fittings should be right next to it.

I didn't purchase the bolt for the other end of the LRT. In the postings I've read it just seemed to be listed as "a bolt will work fine". Is there a size/length I should do for my 3/4" LRT?

As I said earlier, the inner diameter of the tubing is 3/8 inches. Therefore, a 3/8 inch diameter bolt would do fine. I used a 1/2 inch bolt. Length-wise it shouldn't matter as long as it's not too long (like 4 inches or longer) or too short (like half an inch).

Let me reiterate this again: it would be most accurate to call the tubing 3/8 inch tubing. All of the attachments, etc., will be 3/8 inch. However, as I said earlier you might have some luck with slightly larger attachments like 1/2 inch tubing barbs.

I didn't know if I could put threaded parts onto non-threaded PVC pipe. I figured it wasn't best. So I may have bought too many parts on that premise. For example - for the LRT sections the tee will connect to a short piece of 3/4" PVC (how short is the shortest people usually cut these down for connectors?), to a 3/4" slip-on to threaded, to a piece that's 3/4" threaded female hose to 5/8" nylon barb.

If that's correct, should I be using teflon tape for any threaded pieces? If so, how much?

As aEx said, some sort of drawing would help. PVC designer is okay but it doesn't have LRT. A photo of a hand drawing is usually what I do when I want to show something.

Teflon tape should be used for threaded pieces. There's one misconception I'd like to clear up before you hold it. Teflon tape is not used to improve the seal. Teflon tape is only used to make threading and unthreading easier. Using too much teflon tape will break the fitting or make the seal worse because it can't be tightened enough. I use two layers and no more.

The pink tape works best for water guns in my experience. I think that's because it's for water.