Users, not guns, win wars

Topics about water war tactics, water war planning, and past water war stories.
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DX
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Users, not guns, win wars

Post by DX » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:02 pm

Another promised article!

Users, not guns, win wars:

Ok, this is a very simple concept. People all the time ask "which gun is better" or "which gun will win" or the such. However, it it not really correct to compare two guns and try to decide which one would "win" unless user skill is defined in that situation.

A gun is only as good as its user. Never forget that. A n00b wielding a big gun like a CPS 1500 can be driven back by a seasoned veteran wielding a small gun like an XP 310. In the same way, two users to equal skill with guns such as a 1500 vs a 2500 will balance each other perfectly. These are not based off logic, these are based off actual observations. Little is more threatening than a user who knows how to use his/her gun effectively.

A good user maximizes his gun's strengths. That is obvious. If your gun has amazing capacity, go on the offensive and shoot often, get the pressure on the enemy, make things hot. If your gun has amazing range, get on the front lines and hammer the enemy from afar, but only take well placed shots and in the tap-pump style unless your gun also has the capacity to justify taking lots of shots. Not using your gun to its fullest ability is like going out on the track during a meet and jogging the 100m dash. If you want to win, you've got to use the strengths of your gun against the enemy but also against the enemy's counters. A competent enemy will try and negate your gun's strengths and you have to be ready for that. Don't get drawn into bad fighting places and don't assume the enemy will do things they obviously won't, like attacking a heavily fortified hill head-on.

A good user cancels out his gun's weaknesses. Like my "Elimination of Capacity Stats" article I will be writing. If you are using a gun that guzzles water, such as a CPS 2000, don't let the enemy play off that weakness! Eliminate it! Using the tap-pump method, you can eliminate any disadvantages in shot time and shots per tank. That way, you can stretch your tank out for over an hour and never get anywhere close to running out of pressure. Ever. You should never run out of pressure in a non-soakfest war ever again after reading that upcoming article. In a similar way, if you have a CPS 2100 and are facing longer range guns, don't let the enemy use that to their advantage. Fight in places where range advantage is negated. There are few places where range doesn't help, but there are places. And I won't say where to look, since my opponents read the iSoaker forums too. :p Also, don't forget to counter your enemy's counter against your counter! Water warfare is as much a psychological game as a physical showdown. Every move has an effective counter, and every counter has a counter! You will need to do a lot more in order to draw an enemy into an ambush spot, out of a fortification, or down from a hill. Have patience, always keep your disadvantages down, no matter how you have to lure the enemy into your grasp.

Lots of newbies with bad guns vs a handful of vets with good ones: This is an old debate, and in this situation, the battle could swing either way depending on the terrain and how severe the gap is. However, no matter how powerful your guns, or how many years of experience you have, there will be situations where inferior-armed enemies will overwhelm you purely by numbers. It happened to me as recently as the last war! I can take on 3 at once, but as that battle showed, 4 is too many. When the better armed soldiers have the numbers advantage there is no excuse for defeat! [Well there is, but that's the subject of yet another article]

Every user is different. Just because someone with a CPS 4100 fights badly doesn't mean every 4100 user fights badly. In the inverse, not every 2500 user will be like the guy who just kicked your ass today. So, you have to treat each user independently and form a strategy against that person as an individual. Each time the person behind the gun changes, you have to change too. One strategy will not work against every user of a certain soaker. Switch up your tactics and make them appropriate for the enemies you are fighting.

I think that's it. This was another one of those 45 minute write-ups, and I hope people actually read this one.

EDIT: Didn't realize the word filter went as far as the word c o u g h.

*please excuse me, I have a cold* *please excuse me, I have a cold* :p
Last edited by DX on Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Silence » Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:14 am

Okay, okay, I've read this already :rolleyes: --not that I've read any others, though, since I haven't been here too long.

The article is good, but somewhat repetitive of common themes and a bit vague. Maybe, in an update, you could focus on how to maximize the advantages of particular soakers.

In addition, I'd be really interested in reading articles that talk about actual battlefield tactics. I know that there are a lot out there, but I'd prefer to read one by you ;) .

Could you post some links to your other articles?

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Post by DX » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:05 am

It is supposed to be vague, as it is not directed at just one audience. If I had written in depth about how to maximize the advantage of every soaker of every type and in every stat, I would still be typing the article well into Friday morning. Some of that may be in other articles, I don't know yet.

As for battlefield tactics, I'm kinda hesitant to to type the best I know, simply because they could be used against me if anyone from Waterbridge happened to read it. I might take a chance, as I do have some pretty juicy stuff, but...let's put it at a maybe. I love the word maybe, because you don't have to make a committment either way. :p Most likely you will see something good though.
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Post by WaTer FigHt NoOb » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:31 pm

I agree with Duxburian on this one. The soldier is more important than the gun

-A nice gun helps though...

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Post by Silence » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:22 pm

By WaTer FigHt NoOb:
I agree with Duxburian on this one. The soldier is more important than the gun

-A nice gun helps though...


A nice gun does help...but as Duxburian stated, it's how you maximize the advantages of the soaker--a very, very, important claim :cool: . So it's really a combination of gun and user.

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Post by WaTer FigHt NoOb » Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:05 pm

A nice gun really does help. If you had and XP 310 and another other guy has a cps 4100. you are both about the same skill level and have both been through enough battles and wars to know all or most of the guns out there.

Who would win? What would you do that the other guy couldn't beat with his 4100.

(you have to take into account that this is a one on one so there is less room for strategy with other teammates)

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Post by Silence » Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:15 pm

WaTer FigHt NoOb, everybody sees your point, but that isn't exactly what Duxburian was talking about: his scenario was if you had the XP 310 and some other guy had a CPS 4100, but you had way more skill. In that situation, you should crush the other guy, because there's bound to be some advantage that the XP 310 has and that you can maximize. In addition, there must be some disadvantage that the CPS 4100 has (RANGE) and that you can implement ;) .

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Post by DX » Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:18 pm

Always take a nice gun when you can, obviously. So if you face an opponent of equal skill, you will most likely beat them via a better gun than they have. And there's some deception stuff you can do, such as using a power modded 2100 that looks like a regular stock 2100.
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Post by Silence » Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:21 pm

In your opinion, Duxburian, are 21Ks better than most homemades? I haven't used one (the only CPS that I have is a 4100), but if it is better than a homemade and looks like a standard commercial soaker, then you have a neat surprise...

Too bad your enemies only fall for it once--and in Ridgewood, I'm sure everybody knows you when they see you :D . By the way, you're getting close to 1,000 posts, aren't you?

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Post by DX » Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:53 pm

Yeah, it is funny that the good ole' 21K still wipes out all my homemades in all areas except output. You need to make one heck of a homemade to beat the stream velocity and need to make a sizable one to beat the range. My ancient 21K still gets 7ft over my best homemade [~60ft vs ~53ft].

Although I am in the process of finishing two cannon-like homemades, those will easily outdo all soakers I've ever seen and produce unheard-of outputs.

As for the trick, it has already been exhausted here. They know what to look for. And I'm finally getting close to 1000 posts. It's taken a while...
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Post by joannaardway » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:05 pm

The user's skill is very important, and most unexperienced users don't realise that. I could go on with this, but I'd just end up repeating people.

However, the weapon should never be overlooked - even a noob can get lucky.
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Post by SSCBen » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:38 pm

In your opinion, Duxburian, are 21Ks better than most homemades? I haven't used one (the only CPS that I have is a 4100), but if it is better than a homemade and looks like a standard commercial soaker, then you have a neat surprise...


I'm not exactly sure what Duxburian is doing incorrectly to not get his homemade water guns to perform better than his modified water guns. My 60 balloon CPS 21000 does perform very well (50 - 55 feet of distance without correct nozzle sizes) and does have excellent stream velocity. However, all of my homemade water guns defeat it in efficiency, distance, and output. The performance is more than enough to be a surprise if that's what you intend anyway. ;)

For the same nozzle size (typically 1/4" is what I use), the 21K is actually far less powerful than my latest APH. My latest APH blew the nozzle off before I cemented it on. In contrast, the 21K hasn't needed a permanent threaded nozzle yet. The 21K's shot is slower than my homemade water guns, but I will admit that I am using 10 - 20 less balloons than Duxburian.

As for the article, I will agree to a certain extend with what is said. You can use some water guns better than others will use them. The common myth of a "veteran" defeating a "newbie" where the veteran has an XP 310/Max-D 6000 and the newbie has a CPS 2500/CPS 3000/CPS 1500/etc is true. That can and does happen as it always will. However, I don't think that people should just assume that since they believe they are better than another person that their opponent's weapons will be ineffective. If you truly believe that regardless of what water gun you use, you will defeat all others, you are in for some major disappointments.

I'll also give my honest opinion on the shot time issue: you can't compete with a superior shot time. I'd love to see any one of you try to defeat me with a long-shot time homemade water gun, especially if you believe that your distance will defeat me. Yes you can do tap shots, but so can I on top of my already superior shot time. It would be hard to make up for an extreme advantage anyway especially in this situation - the extended shot time user's tap shots are unnecessary! Essentially, what you can do, your opponent can also do. The minute that your opponent notices that you are doing something that's really effective, the least you can expect them to do is the same (unless they are stupid, in which case you won't have a problem).

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Post by DX » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:33 pm

My homemade tend to not be all that large, since I am shooting for battle practicality over raw power. My best in terms of power is my first, the dual chamber APH with the ~60x, but still not quite 50ft, even with the correct nozzle size. Maybe the air leak has something to do with that? :p But even if it did perform like it should, the stream velocity and range would still be nowhere near the modded guns. The 21K still hits 60 on a regular basis and takes 10 pumps. That homemade ^ takes 55 pumps!

Plus, none of my homemades have had too much recoil. My older 21K, the one that shot 65ft, had nearly 45 degree recoil, and with a mere 75 balloons. My current 21K does not get such recoil, and it has 85 balloons.

As for the shot time issue, I will admit that like 5-10 minute shot time is hard to counter. One rarely encounters homemades with that capability, however, so the tap-pump strategy does not take into account a severe advantage such as that. It would be the same as if one had a homemade capable of shooting 150ft with deadly accuracy. No matter what the enemies did, it would be extremely difficult to counter the extreme advantage.
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Post by Silence » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:06 pm

Ben (Post #12)
I'll also give my honest opinion on the shot time issue: you can't compete with a superior shot time. I'd love to see any one of you try to defeat me with a long-shot time homemade water gun, especially if you believe that your distance will defeat me. Yes you can do tap shots, but so can I on top of my already superior shot time. It would be hard to make up for an extreme advantage anyway especially in this situation - the extended shot time user's tap shots are unnecessary! Essentially, what you can do, your opponent can also do. The minute that your opponent notices that you are doing something that's really effective, the least you can expect them to do is the same (unless they are stupid, in which case you won't have a problem).


Yes, you posted an article about long shot times (using Leftovers) over at SoakerMedia.

I'm not sure that one should expect an opponent to imitate all good tactics. This article is at least partly about maximizing the advantages of your own soakers and the disadvantages of your opponents' soakers. Thus, you should be using tactics that you can use to maximum effect, but that the enemy can't use to his or her own advantage.

Shot time certainly can be a useful thing--as long as one uses it. The point of using a soaker is to soak the enemy as much as possible; it doesn't matter how long it takes to do so. I would be content using a gun with a medium- or large-sized stream, because if it fires at a high velocity, then one doesn't need to lead the target as much and will probably waste less water through any misses. EDIT: Thus, we are led back to the point of maximizing the advantages of individual soakers.

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I agree

Post by 00chapin00 » Wed May 31, 2006 10:20 pm

I agree with Duxburian on this one. He is 100% correct. Here is an example. I play with my neighbors a lot but they are a bunch of noobs. One of them is pretty descent but the rest I can take out with a water pistol. One of them has a flash flood just like I do but he has a backpack attachment and I have yet to purchase it. He thought he was going to dominate me with it but he kept doing the flash floods special ability when you get rid of all the water in the top tank. He ran out after like 10 shots. We play that you can't refill 'till all the players need to. That way no one can shoot you as you refill. (Don't look at me it's just all of their noob rules :mad: .) Then I decide to make this great for me and I shoot short shots at him and he got *$#@ed :mad: at me so he tried to attack me. I pulled out a flash flood on him and just guess who won. :)

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