Super Soaker Central forums

Drenchenator · 06-17-2008, 09:08 AM

It seems Hasbro has released a gun to coincide with the new Incredible Hulk movie. I saw it yesterday. It's a repackaged Aquashock Secret Strike with a blue reservoir and three nozzles instead of four. Why the downgrade? I don't know. The gun was selling for 15 USD, which I believe would be a completely ripoff. Having a nozzle selector is a good idea, but since this gun is in fact a even cheaper ripoff of the Secret Strike, I'm gonna have to recommend that people should buy the old gun instead of this newer old.

Goldfish4209 · 06-17-2008, 09:30 AM

Well the Secret Strike's main feature is the nozzle that shoots down (when you have your hands raised as if you're going to surrender and then soak someone). I suppose if the Hulk water gun had that nozzle too, it would kind of take away the "uniqueness" of the Secret Strike.

cantab · 06-17-2008, 01:24 PM

Yeah...the secret strike nozzle's a bit useless IMHO. Mainly because the gun can't shoot reliably at arbitrary angles. I'd sooner consider it good for shooting when the gun's pointing DOWN, as though you are just casually carrying it, and then without even raising, SOAK! Or for holding it sideways for a round-the-corner shot without exposing your hand. Using the nozzle with the gun pointed at the sky is probably the last thing I'd do.
So as long as the new gun has at least the power of the old, I see nothing particularly wrong with it. After all, the Secret Strike was just a minor upgrade to the Overload (and a 'downgrade' if you'd rather have the backpack than the extra nozzle).
Mind you having the movie license will probably inflate the price.

Drenchenator · 06-17-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

After all, the Secret Strike was just a minor upgrade to the Overload (and a 'downgrade' if you'd rather have the backpack than the extra nozzle).

I didn't realize that. I admit that the Secret Strike's nozzle isn't that great, but Hasbro shouldn't be removing features; they should instead be adding them. I actually prefer backpacks, so this revelation is real hit for me.

cantab · 06-21-2008, 09:09 AM

Actually, now that I've checked - I should correct myself a little. The Incredible Hulk gun appears to be a rerelease of the Overload, minus the backpack. The Secret Strike was based on the Overload, also minus the backpack, but has a larger onboard reservoir. It'll connect to the backpack anyway, which can still be bought separately and will I think work with any gun in the aquashock line.

So this new gun is completely a step backwards. Still, as long as it doesn't actually replace the Secret Strike, I'm not hugely bothered.

Ben · 06-21-2008, 04:19 PM

New themed water guns never replace the ones they're based on so I doubt they'll replace the Secret Strike. It's only designed to cash in on a movie so I don't think it'll even last more than a few months.

Goldfish4209 · 06-21-2008, 04:41 PM

Spiderman 3 Helix, Transformers water gun...The list goes on and on, and just goes to show how Hasbro is definitely catering toward the younger customers.

Drenchenator · 06-21-2008, 09:10 PM

I really don't see the point too. Who'd want to buy an Incredible Hulk water gun just because it's marked "Incredible Hulk?" Hasbro obviously is again trying to sell to a younger audience than we would like. I just hope that they eventually realize what they realized with Nerf--that an older audience does in fact use Super Soakers too!

Specter · 06-22-2008, 12:06 AM

Quote:

I just hope that they eventually realize what they realized with Nerf--that an older audience does in fact use Super Soakers too!

Someone could always start a petition email to send to Hasbro?

cantab · 06-22-2008, 04:22 AM

I suppose with Nerf there's the office wars sort of thing. Don't know how big it is in reality but Hasbro probably think it is.

As for who'd buy guns like this - parents of young children.

Child: Mummy mummy I want that
Mum: But you already have three water guns dear
Child: But mummy mummy that's the Incredible Hulk I don't have that one pleaaaaaaaaase
Mum: Oh alright then...

Hasbro don't expect young children, or unknowledgeable parents, to know much about water guns. Hence the gimmicks and movie licenses. We haven't really had anything aimed at making better performing guns from Hasbro since the Max-D line. And I think it's been said that Hasbro now are selling more guns than ever.

Basically, the problem is that how something sells often depends very little on how good it is, and very much on how it is marketed. Gimmicks and movie tie-ins are a better way to sell guns than performance, since the former is essentially limitless, whereas the latter is limited by safety (the CPS 2000 being about on that limit, every gun since has been weaker).

With any luck we might get some anniversary re-releases of the 2k or the 98's. But we've missed the 10th year, we'd have to hope for the 15th.

Other than that, I think our best hope may be for when the CPS patents expire.

Goldfish4209 · 06-22-2008, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cantab

Other than that, I think our best hope may be for when the CPS patents expire.

Don't count out Water Warriors, I hope they can find a CPS-equivalent system somehow

Silence · 06-22-2008, 10:16 AM

People have tried petitions before, but they just don't work. We're a very small part of the customer base, and with 99% of people happy with (or just ignorant of) current water guns, there's no incentive to build better water guns. Sales are probably higher than ever and there's nothing we can do to change Hasbro's strategy.

So far, the Water Warriors "Hydro Power" hasn't been so good. The problem with rubber diaphragms is that the rubber is only on one side of the water compartment, which leads to a massive net force that needs to be balanced with a strong, heavy frame and tons of screws. For the most part, cylindrical and spherical bladders have force being applied in all directions, which cancels things out.

cantab · 06-22-2008, 02:28 PM

I seem to recall the cylindrical CPS patent possibly having been invalidated by prior art, specifically the 'water worm' type weapons. I think there was a test case that found against Hasbro. But evidently BBT either don't want to take the risk (perhaps of losing a judgement in a different jurisdiction), or would rather use their own ideas.

However - the Air Pressure Homemade and other homemade designs prove that CPS is not required to get high powered guns. It stops shot drop-off, but has little bearing on initial range and output.

Perhaps more pressing is as I said toy safety regulations. In today's sue-happy USA, toy companies will be nervous about releasing high powered water blasters. And even marking one "for adult use only - not a toy" wouldn't necessarily safeguard the company against that.

used man · 06-22-2008, 03:14 PM

there is an adult audience for super soakers, but when i logged back on to nerf haven yesterday at 9:00 there where 25 users browsing the forum. me ben drenchanator and eax155 are the only people who ive noticed regularly viewing these forums. it just shows that there is a bigger adult audience for nerf than super soakers.

Silence · 06-22-2008, 05:28 PM

The most likely scenario was that somebody else had produced water guns using cylindrical bladders but didn't patent it. Then Larami came along and patented it themselves. That said, I haven't done the research, but Ben should know.

Safety is a non-issue. As Ben has said before, anything is dangerous if used improperly. Somebody could take a CPS 2000 and whack an opponent upside the head with it, which would hurt more than getting hit by the stream. But you could also hit somebody with a brick, which would hurt even more. Ban bricks? That would necessitate tearing down nearly every building in my city.

The old CPS water guns weren't dangerous by any means. The "CPS 2000 shooting an eyeball out of its socket" was a myth, although it could potentially bruise a target. The only problems would be manufacturing price, the item not suiting the demographic thanks to size and price (parents buy for young children, and many would shy away from the CPS line - I'm lucky to have gotten an XP 270), and the fact that there's plenty of audience for any water gun line. Most people either (A) don't do their research or (B) don't care.

EDIT: People definitely perceive water guns as being for kids. Nerf is niche enough to avoid that, at least to some extent.

06-17-2008, 09:08 AM	#1
Drenchenator Administrator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 715 UserID: 320	New Incredible Hulk Gun It seems Hasbro has released a gun to coincide with the new Incredible Hulk movie. I saw it yesterday. It's a repackaged Aquashock Secret Strike with a blue reservoir and three nozzles instead of four. Why the downgrade? I don't know. The gun was selling for 15 USD, which I believe would be a completely ripoff. Having a nozzle selector is a good idea, but since this gun is in fact a even cheaper ripoff of the Secret Strike, I'm gonna have to recommend that people should buy the old gun instead of this newer old. __________________ The Drenchenator, also known as Lt. Col. Drench.

06-17-2008, 09:30 AM	#2
Goldfish4209 «ṀĔḾḂẼȐ» Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 67 UserID: 1590	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun Well the Secret Strike's main feature is the nozzle that shoots down (when you have your hands raised as if you're going to surrender and then soak someone). I suppose if the Hulk water gun had that nozzle too, it would kind of take away the "uniqueness" of the Secret Strike.

06-17-2008, 01:24 PM	#3
cantab Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England Posts: 446 UserID: 1400	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun Yeah...the secret strike nozzle's a bit useless IMHO. Mainly because the gun can't shoot reliably at arbitrary angles. I'd sooner consider it good for shooting when the gun's pointing DOWN, as though you are just casually carrying it, and then without even raising, SOAK! Or for holding it sideways for a round-the-corner shot without exposing your hand. Using the nozzle with the gun pointed at the sky is probably the last thing I'd do. So as long as the new gun has at least the power of the old, I see nothing particularly wrong with it. After all, the Secret Strike was just a minor upgrade to the Overload (and a 'downgrade' if you'd rather have the backpack than the extra nozzle). Mind you having the movie license will probably inflate the price.

06-21-2008, 09:09 AM	#5
cantab Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England Posts: 446 UserID: 1400	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun Actually, now that I've checked - I should correct myself a little. The Incredible Hulk gun appears to be a rerelease of the Overload, minus the backpack. The Secret Strike was based on the Overload, also minus the backpack, but has a larger onboard reservoir. It'll connect to the backpack anyway, which can still be bought separately and will I think work with any gun in the aquashock line. So this new gun is completely a step backwards. Still, as long as it doesn't actually replace the Secret Strike, I'm not hugely bothered.

06-21-2008, 04:19 PM	#6
Ben Founder Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 5,985 UserID: 1	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun New themed water guns never replace the ones they're based on so I doubt they'll replace the Secret Strike. It's only designed to cash in on a movie so I don't think it'll even last more than a few months. __________________ email: ben at sscentral dot org / Forum rules Read this page before emailing me. Do not send me a PM or email with a water gun question if someone else could answer the question. Post at the forums. You will get a response from me along with others' views or ideas. Do not send me a PM or email about reading a certain post unless it's been a few days since you've posted. I try to read every post.

06-21-2008, 04:41 PM	#7
Goldfish4209 «ṀĔḾḂẼȐ» Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 67 UserID: 1590	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun Spiderman 3 Helix, Transformers water gun...The list goes on and on, and just goes to show how Hasbro is definitely catering toward the younger customers.

06-21-2008, 09:10 PM	#8
Drenchenator Administrator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 715 UserID: 320	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun I really don't see the point too. Who'd want to buy an Incredible Hulk water gun just because it's marked "Incredible Hulk?" Hasbro obviously is again trying to sell to a younger audience than we would like. I just hope that they eventually realize what they realized with Nerf--that an older audience does in fact use Super Soakers too! __________________ The Drenchenator, also known as Lt. Col. Drench.

06-22-2008, 04:22 AM	#10
cantab Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England Posts: 446 UserID: 1400	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun I suppose with Nerf there's the office wars sort of thing. Don't know how big it is in reality but Hasbro probably think it is. As for who'd buy guns like this - parents of young children. Child: Mummy mummy I want that Mum: But you already have three water guns dear Child: But mummy mummy that's the Incredible Hulk I don't have that one pleaaaaaaaaase Mum: Oh alright then... Hasbro don't expect young children, or unknowledgeable parents, to know much about water guns. Hence the gimmicks and movie licenses. We haven't really had anything aimed at making better performing guns from Hasbro since the Max-D line. And I think it's been said that Hasbro now are selling more guns than ever. Basically, the problem is that how something sells often depends very little on how good it is, and very much on how it is marketed. Gimmicks and movie tie-ins are a better way to sell guns than performance, since the former is essentially limitless, whereas the latter is limited by safety (the CPS 2000 being about on that limit, every gun since has been weaker). With any luck we might get some anniversary re-releases of the 2k or the 98's. But we've missed the 10th year, we'd have to hope for the 15th. Other than that, I think our best hope may be for when the CPS patents expire.

06-22-2008, 10:16 AM	#12
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,251 UserID: 576	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun People have tried petitions before, but they just don't work. We're a very small part of the customer base, and with 99% of people happy with (or just ignorant of) current water guns, there's no incentive to build better water guns. Sales are probably higher than ever and there's nothing we can do to change Hasbro's strategy. So far, the Water Warriors "Hydro Power" hasn't been so good. The problem with rubber diaphragms is that the rubber is only on one side of the water compartment, which leads to a massive net force that needs to be balanced with a strong, heavy frame and tons of screws. For the most part, cylindrical and spherical bladders have force being applied in all directions, which cancels things out. __________________ Forum Rules

06-22-2008, 02:28 PM	#13
cantab Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: England Posts: 446 UserID: 1400	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun I seem to recall the cylindrical CPS patent possibly having been invalidated by prior art, specifically the 'water worm' type weapons. I think there was a test case that found against Hasbro. But evidently BBT either don't want to take the risk (perhaps of losing a judgement in a different jurisdiction), or would rather use their own ideas. However - the Air Pressure Homemade and other homemade designs prove that CPS is not required to get high powered guns. It stops shot drop-off, but has little bearing on initial range and output. Perhaps more pressing is as I said toy safety regulations. In today's sue-happy USA, toy companies will be nervous about releasing high powered water blasters. And even marking one "for adult use only - not a toy" wouldn't necessarily safeguard the company against that.

06-22-2008, 03:14 PM	#14
used man skater of doom Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: seattle washington Posts: 77 UserID: 1520	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun there is an adult audience for super soakers, but when i logged back on to nerf haven yesterday at 9:00 there where 25 users browsing the forum. me ben drenchanator and eax155 are the only people who ive noticed regularly viewing these forums. it just shows that there is a bigger adult audience for nerf than super soakers. __________________ "dont mess with used man!"-sloganizer.net thanks to dx for link to website

06-22-2008, 05:28 PM	#15
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,251 UserID: 576	Re: New Incredible Hulk Gun The most likely scenario was that somebody else had produced water guns using cylindrical bladders but didn't patent it. Then Larami came along and patented it themselves. That said, I haven't done the research, but Ben should know. Safety is a non-issue. As Ben has said before, anything is dangerous if used improperly. Somebody could take a CPS 2000 and whack an opponent upside the head with it, which would hurt more than getting hit by the stream. But you could also hit somebody with a brick, which would hurt even more. Ban bricks? That would necessitate tearing down nearly every building in my city. The old CPS water guns weren't dangerous by any means. The "CPS 2000 shooting an eyeball out of its socket" was a myth, although it could potentially bruise a target. The only problems would be manufacturing price, the item not suiting the demographic thanks to size and price (parents buy for young children, and many would shy away from the CPS line - I'm lucky to have gotten an XP 270), and the fact that there's plenty of audience for any water gun line. Most people either (A) don't do their research or (B) don't care. EDIT: People definitely perceive water guns as being for kids. Nerf is niche enough to avoid that, at least to some extent. __________________ Forum Rules

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