Hasbro Soakers sliding into Gimmicks!!

[MarsGlorious]

MarsGlorious is concerned! ,
The golden age was over when Lamari merged with Hasbro in 2002. After this the guns were never the same and it appears that Hasbro now markets it's soakers not on range and power but on Gimmicks.

Sadly, I think this is getting a lot more common in super soakers. Hasbro just released two killer gimmick soakers. The Transformers Water Shooter and the Spiderman 3 Soaker (decorated Helix). This takes the cake.

It seems that none of the newest soakers from Hasbro are made with performance in mind. Instead they employ useless gimmicks to sell their weapons. It seems that all we can do now is sit back and hope that Hasbro does not take the "super" out of super soakers as it seems to be doing.

Bye, From Australia. (Yep, even Australians have noticed!)

[Silence]

Yes, the gimmicks trend is quite disturbing.

Buzz Bee Toys, a relatively new manufacturer, sells quite a few innovative water guns. While they generally get good range, that's mainly from good design than from brute force. Thus, many modifications are difficult or impossible on BBT soakers.

Companies really don't have much incentive to produce more powerful water guns - the biggest market in the under-10 or under-12 years old range. The best option is to build your own homemade.

[Ben]

I don't really find the gimmick water guns annoying because Larami, Hasbro, and even Buzz Bee Toys have always had them. Remember that Larami made the XP Backfire and SS MDS back before Hasbro's complete takeover. Gimmick water guns are not meant for me and I can ignore them. With that being said, recent years have had much more prominent gimmicks, putting gimmicks on water guns that should have been serious. That started in 2003 with EES, a purely gimmick line. There are some decent later water guns like the Flash Flood and Blazer, but none of the water guns approached even the smallest CPS water gun.

Back in 2004, were were told that market conditions control what can be sold. Large water guns apparently don't sell, take up more shelf space so less can be transported and sold, the costs to make a high powered CPS water gun would put it in the $40 range, water guns over $20 don't sell, etc. We've heard it all before. But, last year Hasbro released the HydroBlitz, a water gun about the size of the CPS 1500. While the size was an improvement, marketing the size with a lack of power isn't what we want. I realize we're not the manufacturers' target audience. But, what appear to be attempts to appeal to an older audience are done so poorly.

What I don't really like is the lack of consistency and communication about this. The last real update on market conditions we had was back in 2004 and we haven't had much if any communication with manufacturers since then. We don't know what's going on, and I don't like that. If shelf space was a problem, why release the HydroBlitz? Thicker latex tubing isn't notably more expensive than thinner tubing, especially in bulk.

And when are we going to see the return of nozzle selectors on powerful water guns? The recent Flash Flood, Arctic Blast, and HydroBlitz would seem a lot better if they had simple nozzle selectors. Eliminate the big blast option, increase the tubing diameter to about 1/2 inch, and then put a nozzle selector on with a big blast nozzle. That's less parts, more power, and more versatility. Why Hasbro doesn't do that is beyond me. Buzz Bee Toys at least has enough sense to put nozzle selectors on guns that could use it.

But, there are other options. Most people prefer to buy old water guns off eBay, but that can't be thought of as a permanent solution. Some modify existing water guns, but today's designs are not very good for modification. And as SilentGuy mentioned, others avoid manufacturers completely and build their own water guns, but that's not for everyone.

I think the homemade route is the best option not only for now, but for the long term, because it gives water guns better than anything Super Soaker ever made and isn't disappearing any time soon (if ever). Of course, some people are bound to disagree with me, but I'd rather have something I can use than sit around on a forum and complain while waiting for something that might not ever happen.

[MarsGlorious]

I can't remember the old weapons. I came too late it seems. But comparing CPS 2100 to a Arctic Blast. Jesus. I didn't even know you could make a weapon that efficient.

Here Larami was making incredibly powerful weapons back when computers could barely show color on the screen.

I already knew that homemades were the only real option but there is a chance that Buzz Bee toys could bring a new line of good weapons. BBT Soakers appear to be getting better every year but they will need CPS to really come in. Hydropower is CPS for BBT but if they get too good then Hasbro might sue BBT for breaching copyright on their CPS patent. The patent they barely even use.

I don't know how they can call the Arctic Blast a CPS weapon. For the amount of pumping that stream really doesn't live up to the CPS standard of even Hasbro's earlier CPS guns. There are many apparently weak weapons with stronger stream. At least you have the riot blast. But I'd easily trade that for stronger stream. The Arctic Shock, wasn't that non-CPS. Because that has a stronger stream and has actually come in handy in some games.

This whole ice thing isn't amazing either. You can put ice in just about any soaker. The Arctic Shock did have an ice core. But the Arctic Blast isn't special at all.

Larami Super Soaker Motto: Out-Last and Out-Blast the Competition.
Hasbro Super Soaker Motto: Out-Gimmick and Out-Sell the Competition.

[Ben]

I already knew that homemades were the only real option but there is a chance that Buzz Bee toys could bring a new line of good weapons. BBT Soakers appear to be getting better every year but they will need CPS to really come in. Hydropower is CPS for BBT but if they get too good then Hasbro might sue BBT for breaching copyright on their CPS patent. The patent they barely even use.

Larami didn't invent CPS. CPS actually dates back to the 60s in MIT where students used latex tubing (and nothing else) as water guns. Hasbro actually sued Ohio Art in 2003 for infringing on their CPS patents, and Ohio Art won the case. Other water guns have been sold with what is essentially CPS technology over the years as well.

Anyway, if diaphragm (Hydropower) improves, there's nothing Hasbro can do about it. It's a completely different design than typical CPS, but it is less constant. I'd be in favor of using cylindrical water chambers because Hasbro already lost a case about those, but BBT doesn't use that technology for some reason. Perhaps their lawyers want to avoid all conflict. I don't know.

I would like BBT to use cylindrical CPS, but I don't know if they ever will. Diaphragm isn't the same thing.

As for BBT improving, there had been a lot of speculation about that back when they first appeared in 2004, but if you ask me, they're improving no faster than Hasbro is. In fact, their "top of the line" blaster has stayed relatively the same over the years. Back in 2004 it was the Blazer. Now it is the Orca. They are similar, but the Blazer has more powerful PCs. And neither is more powerful than the CPS 1000.

I don't mean to bash BBT because I like them better than Hasbro. I let the facts speak for themselves. With that being said, they have released some neat water guns and they are trying to innovate, like with the Steady Stream and electric water guns they have released. But, they're simply not making water guns up to the standards of the CPS line.

I don't know how they can call the Arctic Blast a CPS weapon. For the amount of pumping that stream really doesn't live up to the CPS standard of even Hasbro's earlier CPS guns. There are many apparently weak weapons with stronger stream. At least you have the riot blast. But I'd easily trade that for stronger stream. The Arctic Shock, wasn't that non-CPS. Because that has a stronger stream and has actually come in handy in some games.

I understand what you're saying about the Arctic Blast. The pumping is terrible. That's because the pump is about 6 inches long. The CPS series had pumps about 9 inches long, if not longer, from what I can remember.

The PC is also minuscule. It's less than half the size of the CPS 1000's chamber. That's my second huge problem with that design.

The lack of a nozzle selector might be the worst problem. Two triggers is no replacement for a nozzle selector and one trigger. One trigger means less tubing and one less valve, which certainly offset the cost of adding a nozzle selector, which allows for more than two selections. So the Arctic Blast could be cheaper. I am very critical of this "feature" on the Flash Flood, Arctic Blast, and HydroBlitz. It's bad design.

The tubing leading up to the normal nozzle is also terribly restricting. The nozzle can't possibly support larger than a 1X nozzle for that reason, which is terrible. It doesn't allow for modification, which is likely why they did it.

I probably could analyze everything wrong with that design, but it's not really worth it. It's just a bad design, period. I wish they would improve on it, but we won't know if they do until 2009.

Perhaps I'll write a page for the update about what can be done to improve current water guns. I know that Hasbro and BBT don't post here actively, but they do at least visit SSC, so writing something couldn't hurt.

[Silence]

My thoughts coincide with Ben's regarding Buzz Bee Toys. They are good competition with an eye for quality, but certain technical restrictions do exist. (Admittedly, BBT could improve range on larger nozzles by increasing the size of the internal tubing...)

HydroPower is inherently limited by its shape. The system uses a rubber sheet clamped onto a plastic plate with a hole in it. As water fills the chamber, the rubber sheet expands out. But unlike other shapes, the diaphragm exerts lots of force on the non-rubber parts because of more non-rubber area (and pressure * area = force).

The larger chambers may have up to 50 square inches of plastic plate. Assuming a pressure of 30 PSIg, that's 1500 pounds of force on the plastic plate! The fifty (it seems) screws on the pressure chamber only barely hold the rubber piece on.

[C-A_99]

I kind of like the spherical design better due to how the force is spread evenly throughout the rubber, and due to the problems (layering, sealing, risk of rupture, etc.) I've had when working with LRT. As for pressure gauging, I don't really care, a transparent case would do the job in either design.

For the gimmicks, we can clearly see a Hasbro favoring towards Nerf. The HydroBlitz wasn't the only gun to BS the shelf space explanation; there are lots of relatively large Nerf blasters still being sold. (though not in the bulky soaker style, but in a compact, slightly realistic style) Their "gimmicks" are actually somewhat useful, including stocks, sights, accessory rails, etc. which sure beat the "ICE COLD" or "BLAST OOZE" crap. Anyone seen the Recon this year?

Right now, the only explanation I can think of is the incompetance and inferiority of the Soaker design team. It is clearly shown in how they market their guns and listen to feedback, and also how they are holding CPS patents just to keep others from making better guns. (Honestly, I don't see much more potential in the HydroPower system, it looks like a pain to get that thing to seal especially at higher pressures, though the low ID of the piping is also to blame.)

Either way, this issue is now 10 years old, and we haven't really seen anything done about it. The solutions remain the same; go for CPS's on eBay or find a way to create a battle practical, ergonomical homemade.

[MarsGlorious]

Even so, BBT is still the most likely to bring in a new line of soakers that have similar power as the old Larami Guns.

And about this subject being 10 years old, I created this thread to learn more about the current state of the soaker market.

Also, the rails and scopes weren't the gimmicks I was referring to. I wouldn't really class them as gimmicks. It's the use of the ice cold and transforming gun gimmicks that I was really don't like.

[Silence]

Originally Posted by MarsGlorious

Even so, BBT is still the most likely to bring in a new line of soakers that have similar power as the old Larami Guns.

That's true.

In the end, there's not much hope for water gun performance to improve, but it could still happen. The market and target audience need to change.

[MarsGlorious]

Agreed!

If true super soakers are to make a come back then there will have to be a burst of popularity that Larami soakers enjoyed at the time.

New ideas and new focus.

[Ben]

The solutions remain the same; go for CPS's on eBay or find a way to create a battle practical, ergonomical homemade.

If you'd like to see a more tactical water gun, you'd be interested in my THR water gun project. I've tried to address the issues some see in homemade water guns there and I think it's enormously successful so far.

Originally Posted by MarsGlorious

If true super soakers are to make a come back then there will have to be a burst of popularity that Larami soakers enjoyed at the time.

That's not necessarily true. From what we've been told, larger water guns are actually less popular with the general public. And from the reviews I've seen on websites like Amazon, the water guns today are very well received by the general public.

With that being said, good quality water guns do seem to attract a more dedicated audience. The companies are attracting a casual audience rather than a dedicated audience. So better water guns likely would translate into more water wars and people on the forums.

[MarsGlorious]

So your saying that the dedicated audience needs to increase in size to encourage the companies to produce bigger soakers.

The companies don't appear to be considering the older audience.

Now I'll see how long it takes for Ben to answer. 10 minutes. 20 minutes. Amazing.

[Silence]

Right...Super Soaker and Hasbro have discovered/decided that the ~10 year old age group is the best to target. Nearly every 10 year old will get a water gun, and people aren't too picky; plus it's hard to see how well a water gun performs without opening the box or reading a review. And most younger people don't remember the older CPS line (even I have only used a CPS 4100 re-release), and they don't read online to find out about it.

There's not really much we can do, unless you know how to convince millions of customers to change priorities.

Originally Posted by MarsGlorious

Now I'll see how long it takes for Ben to answer. 10 minutes. 20 minutes. Amazing.

Check out my most recent post in this thread - 2 minutes. That was just sheer coincidence, though.

[MarsGlorious]

I never would have believed the power of CPS if I hadn't have seen it with my own eyes.

Those guns were amazing. But I would think that if a 10 year old saw an enormous CPS gun fire they'd beg their parents to get one.

[sbell25]

But I would think that if a 10 year old saw an enormous CPS gun fire they'd beg their parents to get one.

I totally agree with that. Which is why I can't understand Hasbro making gimmick soakers instead of larger ones. I remember when I got my first soaker, an XP70, I was about 9 or 10. I saw the XP110 on the shelf beside it and wanted it simply because it was bigger.

Same thing a couple of years later. When I first saw the CPS 2700 on the shelf, I literally dropped to my knees and just stared at it. I just couldn't believe that you could buy a water gun that big! Looking back on it, I would have been wiser to go with the CPS 1700 which was right next to it, but the 2700 was bigger and that was all that mattered.

If I was 10 or 11 again (not knowing what I know now), and was given the choice between a gigantic water gun like the 2700, and some green water gun that shot suspect white ooze, I wouldn't think twice about taking the 2700. To kids who don't know any better, size is everything.