Super Soaker Central forums

Silence · 06-11-2006, 12:41 PM

First of all, note that it is entirely possible to achieve equally high pressures with a smaller PC--it's just that there will be less shot time and more dropoff. Duxburian was referring to the pump diameter, and even though you (and earlier I) say that a longer pump is more efficient, it isn't that much of an advantage--because you'll just be using more, albeit shorter, pumps with a shorter tube.

It really is hard to estimate the power of the design you suggested. The original APH is far more powerful than any CPS or other commercial soaker out there, but the user has to keep up the pressure using tap/pump because it does have dropoff (although tap/pump is also recommended for CPS soakers). If you're using 1" PVC rather than 3" PVC, then the area of the cross-section of the PVC tubing will be only 1/9 that of the original (ignore the volume of the reducers and other tubing for now). Even with multiple PCs, which will increase the length of the entire gun, you will probably have much less PC volume (unless you also made the PCs awkwardly longer), though that might not be too bad a thing, as it would be easier to pressurize and would still be relatively large compared to commercial soakers. Shot time is directly proportional to PC volume, so if you used 3 1" PCs, then you would have 6 times as much dropoff and only 1/6 the shot time.

mr. dude · 06-11-2006, 12:54 PM

I just measured the volume of the entire area that gets pressurized, and got around 250mL, not nearly enough. Though I will be happy when I pump

Silence · 06-11-2006, 02:08 PM

250 mL isn't much after all...the best stock soakers usually have at least 500 mL. Although this means you can pressurize quickly, you would also be fine by using tap/pump on a larger soaker--and you would also be able to fire for a long time without pumping if the situation calls for it.

mr. dude · 06-11-2006, 02:57 PM

Well, at any rate I'm going to try it as it is, to see if it works as it should. Then I'll try the 3" PVC, and maybe even 4"

.

Silence · 06-11-2006, 04:56 PM

Won't you need to use primer and glue for the other parts of the gun anyway? The APH article asserts (and for good reason, too) that you need it anywhere where there's pressure--so that means from the first check valve to the ball valve.

Well then, if you truly are intent on using 1" PVC, then you should definitely make the barrel, ball valve, and the nozzle assembly using 1" PVC too. Assuming only a 3/4" barrel, it might be cheaper to use one or two 3" PCs than 3 or 4 1" PCs, due to the fewer tees, reducers and endcaps used (1 of each for each PC). However, if you decide to use 1" PVC for the barrel, then the reducers aren't needed, and the reduced (no pun intended) price might make up for the extra tees and endcaps. Note that the riot blast will be less laminated, shorter ranged, and with more output (especially for a smaller PC volume)--but I guess that's okay since riot blasts are supposed to be like that anyway. Good luck with your design.

mr. dude · 06-11-2006, 05:20 PM

So far the 1" PC's are just for testing the gun, and if I really like their results then I'll keep them.
Now I have my check valves, and I was hoping to use the gun, but the pump is being a b****, and I can't get it inside the gun thanks to the electrical tape. The obvious solution was to remove a couple of layers, but then the whole thing started leaking, so now I can't get it in. Any solutions? I don't want to remove too many layers so that I don't get the same leak (the PC's had absolutely no water in them).

Silence · 06-11-2006, 05:47 PM

Are you suggesting that you used electrical tape for the seal in your water gun? The best and most popular method is to use O-rings (check out the articles here at SSCentral and over at m15399's Super Soaker Workshop). The electrical tape is really only there to hold the O-ring in place, though it should be layered thickly. If you are using the tape as the seal, you shouldn't be.

mr. dude · 06-11-2006, 05:51 PM

I did use an o-ring, though i was mainly focusing on the electrical tape, and I have read the sscentral article.

Silence · 06-11-2006, 05:53 PM

Did you use an O-ring with a large outer diameter (OD)? Note that the SSC article suggests using one with an OD that is 1/8" larger than the ID of your pump tube.

mr. dude · 06-11-2006, 06:00 PM

I'm not sure about that, all I know is it's the O-ring from my MD6K's PC. My problem isn't with the o-ring, it's with shoving the pump down the pump tube.
I'll be a little more discriptive about my pump shaft. It's a brass tube which I'm attmepting to plug up with a marble. I've tried many sealant meathods, including: O-ring, part of a balloon to represent an o-ring, rubber band to represent an o-ring. So far the rubber band seems to be most successful. I just need to add a bit more tape and test it.

supersoaker · 06-11-2006, 07:08 PM

Uh, did you stick some vaseline down there? That really helped my pump.
Oh and use an O-ring with the electricity tape on each side tohold the O-ring in place, that's the point of the tape, it's not meant to make a seal.

mr. dude · 06-11-2006, 07:09 PM

Yes I did. Doesn't seem to be helping me too much though.

mr. dude · 06-11-2006, 08:47 PM

Well, I got the pump in, though it wasn't great. My rubber bands broke, causing a massive leak at the pump, and I guess I didn't screw the PC's on enough, as they too were leaking, but I now know that the gun works. I got about 1' range on the riot blast, so I don't know whether to be happy or drown in my own tears.

DX · 06-11-2006, 09:02 PM

You should work on those leaks. A good riot blast will send a stream anywhere from 20x-65x+ [depends on your pc capacity] up to 40ft.

For the pump, An O-ring must have the right ID as well as OD. If the ID is too small, the O-ring will become slightly larger when stretched over the pump shaft, and that can increase the OD enough to make it not want to fit right. The ID of the O-ring should be the same as the OD of the pump shaft or slightly larger. Use plenty of tape on both sides to keep the O-ring in place, and use plenty of the vaseline. With all of the above ^ there should not be any problems.

Use thread seal tape if your pc pipe uses threads, it will help reduce the risk of leaks from the threads.

Also, you should seriously consider unscrewing the pc pipes and using something larger. 250mL is not very much. My first homemade has ~2000mL of pc capacity.

mr. dude · 06-11-2006, 09:08 PM

Thanks for those tips, I guess I'll have to go back to home depot. As I said I'm only using the current PC's to test the gun, when I go to home depot I'll return the PC's to get the larger ones.

06-11-2006, 12:41 PM	#16
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,293 UserID: 576	First of all, note that it is entirely possible to achieve equally high pressures with a smaller PC--it's just that there will be less shot time and more dropoff. Duxburian was referring to the pump diameter, and even though you (and earlier I) say that a longer pump is more efficient, it isn't that much of an advantage--because you'll just be using more, albeit shorter, pumps with a shorter tube. It really is hard to estimate the power of the design you suggested. The original APH is far more powerful than any CPS or other commercial soaker out there, but the user has to keep up the pressure using tap/pump because it does have dropoff (although tap/pump is also recommended for CPS soakers). If you're using 1" PVC rather than 3" PVC, then the area of the cross-section of the PVC tubing will be only 1/9 that of the original (ignore the volume of the reducers and other tubing for now). Even with multiple PCs, which will increase the length of the entire gun, you will probably have much less PC volume (unless you also made the PCs awkwardly longer), though that might not be too bad a thing, as it would be easier to pressurize and would still be relatively large compared to commercial soakers. Shot time is directly proportional to PC volume, so if you used 3 1" PCs, then you would have 6 times as much dropoff and only 1/6 the shot time. __________________ Forum rules

06-11-2006, 02:08 PM	#18
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,293 UserID: 576	250 mL isn't much after all...the best stock soakers usually have at least 500 mL. Although this means you can pressurize quickly, you would also be fine by using tap/pump on a larger soaker--and you would also be able to fire for a long time without pumping if the situation calls for it. __________________ Forum rules

06-11-2006, 04:56 PM	#20
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,293 UserID: 576	Won't you need to use primer and glue for the other parts of the gun anyway? The APH article asserts (and for good reason, too) that you need it anywhere where there's pressure--so that means from the first check valve to the ball valve. Well then, if you truly are intent on using 1" PVC, then you should definitely make the barrel, ball valve, and the nozzle assembly using 1" PVC too. Assuming only a 3/4" barrel, it might be cheaper to use one or two 3" PCs than 3 or 4 1" PCs, due to the fewer tees, reducers and endcaps used (1 of each for each PC). However, if you decide to use 1" PVC for the barrel, then the reducers aren't needed, and the reduced (no pun intended) price might make up for the extra tees and endcaps. Note that the riot blast will be less laminated, shorter ranged, and with more output (especially for a smaller PC volume)--but I guess that's okay since riot blasts are supposed to be like that anyway. Good luck with your design. __________________ Forum rules

06-11-2006, 05:47 PM	#22
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,293 UserID: 576	Are you suggesting that you used electrical tape for the seal in your water gun? The best and most popular method is to use O-rings (check out the articles here at SSCentral and over at m15399's Super Soaker Workshop). The electrical tape is really only there to hold the O-ring in place, though it should be layered thickly. If you are using the tape as the seal, you shouldn't be. __________________ Forum rules

06-11-2006, 05:53 PM	#24
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,293 UserID: 576	Did you use an O-ring with a large outer diameter (OD)? Note that the SSC article suggests using one with an OD that is 1/8" larger than the ID of your pump tube. __________________ Forum rules

06-11-2006, 12:54 PM	#17
mr. dude Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 127 UserID: 572	I just measured the volume of the entire area that gets pressurized, and got around 250mL, not nearly enough. Though I will be happy when I pump

06-11-2006, 02:57 PM	#19
mr. dude Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 127 UserID: 572	Well, at any rate I'm going to try it as it is, to see if it works as it should. Then I'll try the 3" PVC, and maybe even 4" .

06-11-2006, 05:20 PM	#21
mr. dude Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 127 UserID: 572	So far the 1" PC's are just for testing the gun, and if I really like their results then I'll keep them. Now I have my check valves, and I was hoping to use the gun, but the pump is being a b****, and I can't get it inside the gun thanks to the electrical tape. The obvious solution was to remove a couple of layers, but then the whole thing started leaking, so now I can't get it in. Any solutions? I don't want to remove too many layers so that I don't get the same leak (the PC's had absolutely no water in them).

06-11-2006, 05:51 PM	#23
mr. dude Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 127 UserID: 572	I did use an o-ring, though i was mainly focusing on the electrical tape, and I have read the sscentral article.

06-11-2006, 06:00 PM	#25
mr. dude Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 127 UserID: 572	I'm not sure about that, all I know is it's the O-ring from my MD6K's PC. My problem isn't with the o-ring, it's with shoving the pump down the pump tube. I'll be a little more discriptive about my pump shaft. It's a brass tube which I'm attmepting to plug up with a marble. I've tried many sealant meathods, including: O-ring, part of a balloon to represent an o-ring, rubber band to represent an o-ring. So far the rubber band seems to be most successful. I just need to add a bit more tape and test it. Last edited by mr. dude : 06-11-2006 at 07:01 PM.

06-11-2006, 07:08 PM	#26
supersoaker Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 24 UserID: 640	Uh, did you stick some vaseline down there? That really helped my pump. Oh and use an O-ring with the electricity tape on each side tohold the O-ring in place, that's the point of the tape, it's not meant to make a seal.

06-11-2006, 07:09 PM	#27
mr. dude Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 127 UserID: 572	Yes I did. Doesn't seem to be helping me too much though.

06-11-2006, 08:47 PM	#28
mr. dude Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 127 UserID: 572	Well, I got the pump in, though it wasn't great. My rubber bands broke, causing a massive leak at the pump, and I guess I didn't screw the PC's on enough, as they too were leaking, but I now know that the gun works. I got about 1' range on the riot blast, so I don't know whether to be happy or drown in my own tears.

06-11-2006, 09:02 PM	#29
DX Wicked Super Admin Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Easton / New London, CT Posts: 1,576 UserID: 75	You should work on those leaks. A good riot blast will send a stream anywhere from 20x-65x+ [depends on your pc capacity] up to 40ft. For the pump, An O-ring must have the right ID as well as OD. If the ID is too small, the O-ring will become slightly larger when stretched over the pump shaft, and that can increase the OD enough to make it not want to fit right. The ID of the O-ring should be the same as the OD of the pump shaft or slightly larger. Use plenty of tape on both sides to keep the O-ring in place, and use plenty of the vaseline. With all of the above ^ there should not be any problems. Use thread seal tape if your pc pipe uses threads, it will help reduce the risk of leaks from the threads. Also, you should seriously consider unscrewing the pc pipes and using something larger. 250mL is not very much. My first homemade has ~2000mL of pc capacity. __________________ Mess With the Best, Get Soaked Like the Rest!! 2004 Red Sox - World Series Champions 2007 RED SOX - WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS! 2003 Patriots - Super Bowl Champions 2004 Patriots - Super Bowl Champions 2007 Patriots - God Damnit! If I change my sig, will the world end?

06-11-2006, 09:08 PM	#30
mr. dude Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 127 UserID: 572	Thanks for those tips, I guess I'll have to go back to home depot. As I said I'm only using the current PC's to test the gun, when I go to home depot I'll return the PC's to get the larger ones.

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