Super Soaker Central forums

Silence · 04-09-2006, 08:53 PM

I'm new here--this is my first post--but I had been reading articles and threads on homemades and I started thinking about a PreCharger homemade (PCgH)

. Buzz Bee Toys' Argon, Xenon, and Krypton would be much more effective with: (1) a more powerful stream, (2) greater range, (3) and a much larger water pressure chamber (PC). Thankfully, this can all be solved with a PCgH that has a large PC, especially one with plenty of room for air.

I was thinking of using a system similar to most backpack APHs, but resembling an original super soaker--a diagram is shown below. The differences are that (1) it can have a ball valve in a standard trigger position, and (2) more importantly, its large PC will be split into an air pressure compartment and a water compartment, like a piston. The air pressure part of the PC will be filled by a screw-on extension in the form of a pump.

Here is the diagram (it's a bit rough because it was only created in Paint)--post if you have any questions about what each part is, because there aren't many labels.

Please post any questions, comments, or suggestions that you have--it would be quite appreciated

.

Scavenger · 04-09-2006, 08:58 PM

You might want to load that image at Photobucket or Imageshack, and the link to it from there. I don't think linking to an image on your hard drive will work.

Silence · 04-09-2006, 09:04 PM

Okay, thanks for that. I wasn't sure if this would work.

It'll probably be a while (maybe a day) before I can sign up somewhere to upload the image

.

EDIT: I got the image up, so thanks a lot, Scavenger! Great help

! I signed up to PhotoBucket, and it turned out to be incredibly simple and quick--no email confirmation

.

Ben · 04-10-2006, 05:15 AM

Welcome to Super Soaker Central SilentGuy!

Your system looks fairly straightforward and would work as is drawn. I do believe that you should relocate a few parts to make the design more efficient and remove a few others. The barrel is unnecessary and would not have an effect on total distance. The pressure chamber also can be put in-line with the nozzle and ball valve, giving it the important "linear design" that I have talk about for a while.

I could draw up these suggestions if you'd like to see a diagram and I normally would, but I have to leave.

Silence · 04-10-2006, 05:56 PM

Thanks for the suggestions, Ben. I think I see what you're talking about, but I'm not sure what you mean by

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben

The pressure chamber also can be put in-line with the nozzle and ball valve, giving it the important "linear design" that I have talk about for a while.

I'm pretty sure that you want the nozzle/ball valve to come straight out of the PC--and I'd normally "aim" for that--but in this case, there are separate air and water compartments. A diagram would be very helpful if you have the time to post it.

I suppose I could completely turn the PC around and have the air compartment in the back and the water compartment in front, but: (1) I would probably need to use the amount of PVC currently in the barrel in order to feed the water compartment; and, (2) though it's not as important, I would lose my trigger mechanism

.

EDIT: In addition, I'm going to change my temporary abbreviation for PreCharger Homemades, originally PCH, to PCGH or PCgH. This prevents any possible conflicts with the similar Constant Pressure Homemades, CPH--after all, the only difference is the letter order. I'm also editing all of my previous posts referring to this.

m15399 · 04-10-2006, 06:56 PM

That's a way to do what Ben was saying. I left out a few parts, I know, but I was just demonstrating the location of the PC and the no barrel thing.

Silence · 04-11-2006, 04:22 PM

Thanks, M15399--I think I see the idea now. It does look like a good solution, especially because the gun will still be fairly balanced (only low-density air is in the compartment farthest from the middle). I think I'll mess around with the idea a bit, because I was hoping for a pretty long pumping piston, which would look and feel a little funny

. Oh well--but thanks for the help.

joannaardway · 04-11-2006, 05:14 PM

There are dozens of ways to arrange a homemade, and some are better for different things.

The efficency of this design, would partly depend on how well the moving "piston" part fitted up against the end - if it's fit was a little less than perfect, then you'd get the effect that you get with CPS weapons - water being left in the PC after firing.

How exactly is this concept intended to work?

Do you fill the chamber with water, then pressurize with the air pump, or vice versa?

I can see a CPS type effect here, with the PC essentially being free from airshots, with potential high pressures even with a near empty chamber, and the water being left in the chamber
However, I can also see a problem - surely the air chamber would need to be at least partly bled of pressure to allow the PC to be re-filled with water, unless the pumper had an upper body structure like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

I have a totally off-the-wall idea that might just work for a homemade.

I don't imagine it will work, and it was a split second idea. Someone else may have thought of this, but I've got a nicer picture.

This is a vaguely similar idea. The configuration is appalling, and I imagine a bleed valve would be needed. There is no water pump.

The left check valve is an air feed to pressurize the air chamber. The right check valve comes from the reservoir.

This is a horrendous mix of piston, seperate PC and pressurized reservoir (in that the only pump pumps air) types, but the principle of operation is as follows.

You draw the piston section out, drawing water in. You then pressurise the air chamber through the air valve. You then open the ball valve, firing the weapon. As a bonus, to increase output, you can force the piston inwards.

The bottom picture shows the piston drawn out, with water drawn in.

In an emergency, the air pressurisation can be done away with (and it used as a piston type, but with limited range), or if you have high upper body strength, then you can draw the piston out with air pressure in the air chamber.

I can see that sealing around the piston shaft would be very hard, but I figured you people would like to know how off my head I am.

m15399 · 04-11-2006, 07:14 PM

He is making a "PreCharger Homemade". First the air is pumped into the back of the piston chamber, then the water is pumped into the front.

Link to article on my site.

joannaardway · 04-12-2006, 05:43 AM

Ah, this isn't something I'm familiar with.

I can see the concept, but I don't understand as your site says "A larger pump is possible" - it would appear that the pressure in the chamber would require a smaller pump - if anything.

m15399 · 04-12-2006, 06:55 PM

My site? I can tell you it DOES NOT say that. You can use a larger pump if you are strong enough. It will be harder to build up pressure, but will use less pumps. A smaller pump would create more pressure, but with more pumps.

Silence · 04-12-2006, 06:57 PM

Great link, M15399! I was thinking of outlining the PreChargers system more clearly even before I saw Jonaardway's and your posts, but your link really outlines the method. It also saved me a bit of time

!

Joannardway, while M15399 explains how PreCharging works, the beauty of it is a little unclear. PreCharging lets you pump a separate air compartment full before a soaker fight, and offers several advantages (though I probably forgot a few): (1) The PC contains high pressure even after the water compartment is emptied; (2) one only has to pump in the water, instead of wasting time pumping and having to pressurize air, making pumping much easier--and possible with larger pump capacties; (3) the air is not released while firing, so repumping the air and repressurizing is not required (and because only water is released, thinner/less resource-consuming streams provide similar soakage); and (4) the pressure and range drops minimally throughout a long shot, similar to CPS soakers.

I know I did turn this partly into a complete analysis of PreCharging and I did repeat myself several times; however, #2 should successfully answer your question--you're not really pressurizing the gun, just filling the pre-pressurized PC with water. Because this is easier, larger pumps still don't use too much force. Of course, you are still fighting the pressure, but you will have an easier time because you only need to pump a little bit to fill the PC.

I decided to use PCgH in my standard soaker soaker because of the advantages listed above, namely the fact that one can pump quickly and even for long shots, thin streams can soak readily. The only problem I see is that unless the air compartment is extremely big, the range may drop slightly throughout the shot. I hope this "summarizes

" the use of PCgHs. They are efficient, and homemades can truly show the potential of PreCharging by solving the problem of a small water compartment in Buzz Bee's PreChargers. I am also thinking about using new systems for soakers with other purposes, hopefully to be posted in the future.

joannaardway · 04-13-2006, 05:52 AM

I'm going to post this in defence of myself:

Your site says (word for word):

Quote:

Allows for much larger pump volume

So other than suggesting a larger pump bore, it can only be suggesting a longer pump - which all soakers can have.

So what exactly does that mean then?

Silence · 04-13-2006, 04:49 PM

Actually, m15399, I think joannaardway may be correct. I didn't support her in my previous post because I was not sure, but your site does say that. And now to back it up (again).

Unlike APHs, the pressure has already been created inside the PC. m15399 might have been referring to the fact that less pumping is required, and one's arm will not become tired, even with a harder pump. I also see Joannaardway's view, that one will still be forcing water into a PC that has been pressurized. My conclusion is that, technically, Joannaardway is correct, but in practice, m15399 is right--this design is meant, as I stated in my last post, to be drained slowly and pumped quickly. If one can fight more pressure than normal for a few pumps, a larger pump can be practical.

Now please, I don't want to turn this thread into an argument over a minor detail that has already been settled. I don't mind if we debate the pros and cons of a larger pump, but only use constructive criticism and don't make accusatory attacks, even in defense. Remember, the point of this thread is to assess the use of PCgHs. I am still looking for feedback!

m15399 · 04-13-2006, 07:17 PM

Oh, sorry. It does... It shouldn't say that. I wrote it a long time ago when I probably thought that it only needed a few pumps because the pump volume was large (silly me). I'll go fix that.

It shouldn't necessarily use a smaller ID either. You can say that about any soaker. 1/2" is the typical ID of manufactured soakers.

View Poll Results: How effective would a PreCharger homemade be?
Superior	3	15.00%
Reasonable	7	35.00%
I don't know	3	15.00%
Average, but extra work	5	25.00%
Surpassable	2	10.00%
Inferior	0	0%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

04-09-2006, 08:53 PM	#1
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cville, VA / Urbana, IL Posts: 3,753 UserID: 576	PreCharger Homemade I'm new here--this is my first post--but I had been reading articles and threads on homemades and I started thinking about a PreCharger homemade (PCgH) . Buzz Bee Toys' Argon, Xenon, and Krypton would be much more effective with: (1) a more powerful stream, (2) greater range, (3) and a much larger water pressure chamber (PC). Thankfully, this can all be solved with a PCgH that has a large PC, especially one with plenty of room for air. I was thinking of using a system similar to most backpack APHs, but resembling an original super soaker--a diagram is shown below. The differences are that (1) it can have a ball valve in a standard trigger position, and (2) more importantly, its large PC will be split into an air pressure compartment and a water compartment, like a piston. The air pressure part of the PC will be filled by a screw-on extension in the form of a pump. Here is the diagram (it's a bit rough because it was only created in Paint)--post if you have any questions about what each part is, because there aren't many labels. Please post any questions, comments, or suggestions that you have--it would be quite appreciated . Last edited by Silence : 07-09-2006 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Fixed PCH diagram/Changed Abbreviation/grammar

04-09-2006, 09:04 PM	#3
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cville, VA / Urbana, IL Posts: 3,753 UserID: 576	Okay, thanks for that. I wasn't sure if this would work. It'll probably be a while (maybe a day) before I can sign up somewhere to upload the image . EDIT: I got the image up, so thanks a lot, Scavenger! Great help ! I signed up to PhotoBucket, and it turned out to be incredibly simple and quick--no email confirmation . Last edited by Silence : 05-28-2006 at 10:14 AM.

04-10-2006, 05:15 AM	#4
Ben Founder Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: College Park, Maryland Posts: 6,336 UserID: 1	Welcome to Super Soaker Central SilentGuy! Your system looks fairly straightforward and would work as is drawn. I do believe that you should relocate a few parts to make the design more efficient and remove a few others. The barrel is unnecessary and would not have an effect on total distance. The pressure chamber also can be put in-line with the nozzle and ball valve, giving it the important "linear design" that I have talk about for a while. I could draw up these suggestions if you'd like to see a diagram and I normally would, but I have to leave. __________________ I am on an extended hiatus from the community at the moment. Non-urgent messages to me will have a delayed reply. / Please read this before emailing me / #soakertalk I do not sell water guns. If you ask me any water gun question by PM or email my response will be to post the question at the forum. My free time is limited. If I do have time I will post a reply to your thread. Private questions are fine and encouraged. Thank you for your consideration.

04-11-2006, 05:14 PM	#8
joannaardway Do not adjust your TV set Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: SW Hertfordshire, England Posts: 855 UserID: 549	There are dozens of ways to arrange a homemade, and some are better for different things. The efficency of this design, would partly depend on how well the moving "piston" part fitted up against the end - if it's fit was a little less than perfect, then you'd get the effect that you get with CPS weapons - water being left in the PC after firing. How exactly is this concept intended to work? Do you fill the chamber with water, then pressurize with the air pump, or vice versa? I can see a CPS type effect here, with the PC essentially being free from airshots, with potential high pressures even with a near empty chamber, and the water being left in the chamber However, I can also see a problem - surely the air chamber would need to be at least partly bled of pressure to allow the PC to be re-filled with water, unless the pumper had an upper body structure like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I have a totally off-the-wall idea that might just work for a homemade. I don't imagine it will work, and it was a split second idea. Someone else may have thought of this, but I've got a nicer picture. This is a vaguely similar idea. The configuration is appalling, and I imagine a bleed valve would be needed. There is no water pump. The left check valve is an air feed to pressurize the air chamber. The right check valve comes from the reservoir. This is a horrendous mix of piston, seperate PC and pressurized reservoir (in that the only pump pumps air) types, but the principle of operation is as follows. You draw the piston section out, drawing water in. You then pressurise the air chamber through the air valve. You then open the ball valve, firing the weapon. As a bonus, to increase output, you can force the piston inwards. The bottom picture shows the piston drawn out, with water drawn in. In an emergency, the air pressurisation can be done away with (and it used as a piston type, but with limited range), or if you have high upper body strength, then you can draw the piston out with air pressure in the air chamber. I can see that sealing around the piston shaft would be very hard, but I figured you people would like to know how off my head I am. __________________ "Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore "So many people have come and gone, their faces fade as the years go by. Yet I still recall as I wander on, as clear as the sun in the summer sky" - More than a feeling, Boston

04-09-2006, 08:58 PM	#2
Scavenger Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 36 UserID: 399	You might want to load that image at Photobucket or Imageshack, and the link to it from there. I don't think linking to an image on your hard drive will work.

04-10-2006, 06:56 PM	#6
m15399 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 224 UserID: 495	That's a way to do what Ben was saying. I left out a few parts, I know, but I was just demonstrating the location of the PC and the no barrel thing.

04-11-2006, 04:22 PM	#7
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cville, VA / Urbana, IL Posts: 3,753 UserID: 576	Thanks, M15399--I think I see the idea now. It does look like a good solution, especially because the gun will still be fairly balanced (only low-density air is in the compartment farthest from the middle). I think I'll mess around with the idea a bit, because I was hoping for a pretty long pumping piston, which would look and feel a little funny . Oh well--but thanks for the help.

04-11-2006, 07:14 PM	#9
m15399 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 224 UserID: 495	He is making a "PreCharger Homemade". First the air is pumped into the back of the piston chamber, then the water is pumped into the front. Link to article on my site.

04-12-2006, 05:43 AM	#10
joannaardway Do not adjust your TV set Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: SW Hertfordshire, England Posts: 855 UserID: 549	Ah, this isn't something I'm familiar with. I can see the concept, but I don't understand as your site says "A larger pump is possible" - it would appear that the pressure in the chamber would require a smaller pump - if anything. __________________ "Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore "So many people have come and gone, their faces fade as the years go by. Yet I still recall as I wander on, as clear as the sun in the summer sky" - More than a feeling, Boston

04-12-2006, 06:55 PM	#11
m15399 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 224 UserID: 495	My site? I can tell you it DOES NOT say that. You can use a larger pump if you are strong enough. It will be harder to build up pressure, but will use less pumps. A smaller pump would create more pressure, but with more pumps.

04-12-2006, 06:57 PM	#12
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cville, VA / Urbana, IL Posts: 3,753 UserID: 576	Great link, M15399! I was thinking of outlining the PreChargers system more clearly even before I saw Jonaardway's and your posts, but your link really outlines the method. It also saved me a bit of time ! Joannardway, while M15399 explains how PreCharging works, the beauty of it is a little unclear. PreCharging lets you pump a separate air compartment full before a soaker fight, and offers several advantages (though I probably forgot a few): (1) The PC contains high pressure even after the water compartment is emptied; (2) one only has to pump in the water, instead of wasting time pumping and having to pressurize air, making pumping much easier--and possible with larger pump capacties; (3) the air is not released while firing, so repumping the air and repressurizing is not required (and because only water is released, thinner/less resource-consuming streams provide similar soakage); and (4) the pressure and range drops minimally throughout a long shot, similar to CPS soakers. I know I did turn this partly into a complete analysis of PreCharging and I did repeat myself several times; however, #2 should successfully answer your question--you're not really pressurizing the gun, just filling the pre-pressurized PC with water. Because this is easier, larger pumps still don't use too much force. Of course, you are still fighting the pressure, but you will have an easier time because you only need to pump a little bit to fill the PC. I decided to use PCgH in my standard soaker soaker because of the advantages listed above, namely the fact that one can pump quickly and even for long shots, thin streams can soak readily. The only problem I see is that unless the air compartment is extremely big, the range may drop slightly throughout the shot. I hope this "summarizes " the use of PCgHs. They are efficient, and homemades can truly show the potential of PreCharging by solving the problem of a small water compartment in Buzz Bee's PreChargers. I am also thinking about using new systems for soakers with other purposes, hopefully to be posted in the future.

04-13-2006, 04:49 PM	#14
Silence Administrator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cville, VA / Urbana, IL Posts: 3,753 UserID: 576	Actually, m15399, I think joannaardway may be correct. I didn't support her in my previous post because I was not sure, but your site does say that. And now to back it up (again). Unlike APHs, the pressure has already been created inside the PC. m15399 might have been referring to the fact that less pumping is required, and one's arm will not become tired, even with a harder pump. I also see Joannaardway's view, that one will still be forcing water into a PC that has been pressurized. My conclusion is that, technically, Joannaardway is correct, but in practice, m15399 is right--this design is meant, as I stated in my last post, to be drained slowly and pumped quickly. If one can fight more pressure than normal for a few pumps, a larger pump can be practical. Now please, I don't want to turn this thread into an argument over a minor detail that has already been settled. I don't mind if we debate the pros and cons of a larger pump, but only use constructive criticism and don't make accusatory attacks, even in defense. Remember, the point of this thread is to assess the use of PCgHs. I am still looking for feedback! Last edited by Silence : 04-13-2006 at 04:51 PM.

04-13-2006, 07:17 PM	#15
m15399 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 224 UserID: 495	Oh, sorry. It does... It shouldn't say that. I wrote it a long time ago when I probably thought that it only needed a few pumps because the pump volume was large (silly me). I'll go fix that. It shouldn't necessarily use a smaller ID either. You can say that about any soaker. 1/2" is the typical ID of manufactured soakers.

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