Homemade store proposal feedback

[isoaker_com]

Well, with the other thread locked, I can neither reply nor vote.

From the last post of Doom's before he locked that thread:

As for guarantees, all guns will be tested. I'd never go so low as to ship out a non-functional gun. I am confused as to why someone would think I would do such a thing. Building time will depend on my available time. Remember, this isn't a factory. If I got an order however, I pretty much could guarantee it would be done in a month during spring and summer.

Again, this is only a poll looking for interest. All of these concerns would have been addressed even if they weren't brought up. I have been asked many times about starting this business and I wouldn't have expressed interest in this topic unless I had it worked out. This topic is now locked because apparently no one realized that. The poll should still be functional.

Regarding your confusion, there still remains the possibility that a homemade, though you stated you tested it, may not function upon arrival at the buyer's location. While you may not be to blame, the buyer may feel otherwise and may even go as far as questioning whether the homemade functioned in the first place. My earlier statements were not to imply that you'd be putting together garbage soakers and trying to pass them off, rather I was thinking as a consumer who is about to spend a good chunk of money on something being built somewhere else pretty much on trust. Buying a Doom-crafted homemade may be nice, but after laying down $55.50 USD+, I'd want to feel that it's a safe investment and my interest in whether you start a store or not depends on that.

Your choice to lock the thread due to the concerns being presented is questionable. The concerns (mine and others) actually do show that there is interest in your store concept, but for it to fly, these initial concerns shouldn't be pushed aside. If someone said they were wondering whether they should build a soaker site, interest in it would really depend on how the site is done, not just because it would be a new soaker site. Same goes for a homemade soaker store -- it's all about how it is done. If everything was 'worked out', then you should not get worked up regarding the concerns raised since those should have already been considered and you should have solid answers to them.

At any rate, your site.. your potential store... you do as you wish.

'nuff said.

B)

[Neuro]

I honestly didn't even notice that the other thread was closed, I decided to leave it alone due to the fact that it seemed some certain people were posting flamebait instead of real posts. What really bothered me was that they were stating U.K. laws without even checking to see if they also took effect in the states. The laws aren't even close, from what I saw posted there. However, I like the point that iSoaker has brought up. I know that you'll pack the homemades properly Doom, but what if, by some freak accident, it got damaged in shipping? What if it got bumped around enough so that the seal around the pump cap broke? I do now think that you'll need some sort of warranty and a Hasbro HQ of a lot of packing popcorn.

[Commander_Gaunt]

I take offense at having my posts called flamebait. And I said REPEATEDLY that I wasn't sure about U.S. law. But if Doom sells over here in England he would be under the jurisdiction of the U.K. legal system.

I realise U.K. law may seem stupid and insignificant to you as we have no constitution so all laws still are in effect. However some laws definately do apply.

For repairs made on any soakers sold Doom would be under the "Supply of goods or sevices act" (1982) Under which if it is requested, he must provide a quote and time limit for the repairs (so he couldn't quote 40 usd and then charge 50usd).

For sales even though it is on the net (where I was assured rules didn't apply there) you would still be under the "Sales of goods act" (1968) Under which he must provide a warranty (at least one month from when the reciever recieved the goods) for free repairs. And also under that one month period he must offer a refund or replacement service.

So Neo I put it to you that YOUR post was flamebait by suggesting that I was stating laws that "weren't even close". ANd yes they do apply in the states if you sell to England (but only on sales to England).:angry:

Oh, btw, over here in England we do agree that some of our laws are dumb. E.g. If you walk down a street wearing a regulation size top hat (9 inches) and you are under 5 feet 2 inches and your hat gets knocked off by a shop awning then you can sue the shop for a new hat. That's true.

[Ben]

It's all very well and fine that everyone has concerns and have brought them up on this topic. I was going to make one for feedback actually because I may have missed something in my drafts (you beat me iSoaker!).

Broken guns come from faulty construction or pressures beyond what they were designed for (typically). Most repairs are to fix those potential problems. One of the main features of homemades is strong construction, mainly for higher pressures and more power, but that also can be taken as plain ol' strength.

My PVC is rated WELL BEYOND the actual pressure it will be using. Construction is done with 200 psi check valves and (I believe) 200 psi ball valves, though I could easily upgrade to 600 psi bronze ball valves for not much more. The actual PCs are made from 3" PVC and I will be careful to buy pressure rated PVC for that purpose, not that it would matter much because even non-pressure rated PVC will take these pressures easily. Pressure problems are non-existent unless you hook your gun up to an air compressor and try to make it explode.

Also, the construction of these guns are the strongest I have seen. I would never take a normal water gun and throw them around out of fear that they will break. My first APH has taken more of a beating than any of my other guns. I've seen it dropped at full pressure, kicked around and even thrown (empty of course). Silly teammates... I am not afraid at all about my homemades breaking from mistreatment. Though, if you throw your gun around and then complain it breaks, you're on your own. Breaking during shipping would be near impossible, especially because I always would ship with a good amount of packing peanuts/bubble wrap!

When you buy guns from eBay, you are going by their word that the guns work too. Of course, you could bring eBay officials into the auction if you get ripped off. Remember, I'll be happy to perform repairs or even upgrade guns I have made (or even haven't) for only shipping charges.

The only possible problems I could foresee in homemades are (1) leaks, which I'll fix when I test and (2) a broken pump shaft which I also can fix. Those are (IMO), the two largest problems you should worry about, though

I am wondering, iSoaker, because you seem so interested in this homemade business (and the poll was private), will you be buying one? Do you want to make one? I have been thinking that you're only looking to criticize. If you take that as interest, I suppose there is very much. I only was "worked up" because that was not the topic of the poll. I don't tell you how to run your site or criticize how you run it. Discussion on-topic was very welcome. And I'm quite sure I gave solid answers to the questions asked of me. Commander Guant was just looking for something to prove or correct me on (and probably still is).

All, please raise any other concerns you have! I am here to serve you, and I care very much about the quality of my guns and service! That is, after all, why I expressed interest in this subject in the first place. Quality water guns for water gunners is my goal. I am looking to be the opposite of the capitalistic TOY companies to finally make only the best water guns.

[Commander_Gaunt]

And I'm quite sure I gave solid answers to the questions asked of me. Commander Guant was just looking for something to prove or correct me on (and probably still is).

No, I wasn't. However when I asked about a warranty (in my ignorance of how good homemades are meant to be) I was told by you that "this is the internet buddy". A solid answer? I think not. So forgive my concern for money I may send for a water gun if that is a solid answer.

Actually I started off trying to help, bringing up the question of a warranty and suchlike as it appears I know more about about business than you. Just in the way I would accept soaker advice from someone like you because you know more about them than me.

However I was shocked by the way that any suggestion that I made was pounced upon by people (no-names) simply because the suggestion suggested you didn't know everything about business and U.K. law.

It appears that as I have not been in the soaker community for long, my opinions on anything do not matter. I have lost a lot of the respect I have built up for SSCentral over the past year.

[isoaker_com]

I am wondering, iSoaker, because you seem so interested in this homemade business (and the poll was private), will you be buying one? Do you want to make one? I have been thinking that you're only looking to criticize. If you take that as interest, I suppose there is very much. I only was "worked up" because that was not the topic of the poll. I don't tell you how to run your site or criticize how you run it. Discussion on-topic was very welcome.

I'm not much into doing homemades, myself, and have just played a bit in the modder's world. I might, in the future, be interested in buying a SSCentral-soaker, but that all depends. I actually jumped into that thread NOT to criticize you, but to lend support to those (I.e. Commander_Gaunt) whose posts I felt were not being taken for what they appeared initially intended for. SSCentral currently is a major part of the online soaker community and the success of its undertakings also reflects on the community as well. My (and the other) concerns were raised, as far as I can tell, since we'd like YOU to be successful in your endeavour. I also considered none of the law-concerning posts off-topic for the poll since, IMO, they are very related to whether some would be interested in you starting a homemade store.

As for my criticism on the fact that you locked the thread... *shrug* Just my opinion. I thought you might be open to it. I stand corrected. As I said, your site... your rules. Do as you wish. As for critiquing how I run iSoaker.com and its forums, I'm open to constructive criticism. If you don't like how an aspect of the forums is running, please do bring it up and I'll look into it.

Oh well, forgive my attempt at showing honest concern.
:mellow:

[Ben]

I deeply apologize for the completely uncalled for negativity... I was taking these posts as some strange attempt to scare me into not selling water guns. The other topic is now unlocked.

I took those posts as off-topic solely because they weren't what I was looking for. I've heard enough of that legal stuff before and already was prepared (and I proved).

As for not criticizing your site, I very much admire your site and can not find any major flaw in it that wouldn't remove a cornerstone from it. I'm not a fan of the Flash, everything else is the best of the best.

I'll continue this post in a minute.

(actually I think I said what I meant best in this short post)

[NiborDude]

Commander Gaunt's posts came off as hostile ones. That's why I think no one took him seriously. Word of advice, when you post, don't be so direct that your ego starts to show. Have an open mind.

As far as legality goes, I don't care. I trust Doom, and hopefully Doom trust's me. Thats how business should be conducted. Through trust. -_-

[Forceuser]

Well, I actually have to say, that IMO CG's posts were trying to be helpful and not trying to get at Doom (at least originally, before others got back at him, which in fact it would mean that other people (I'm not going to mention any names) not CG were flame-baiting and being hostile).

Maybe, to avoid this kind of thing in future, you should add a rule to the guidelines something along the lines of: Argue with the post, not the poster.

[Ben]

Good rule, now added to the guidelines. Yes, I do believe that once some posts were taken as hostile, the topic went downhill. Let's not let that happen again...

[isoaker_com]

As Nibordude said:

I trust Doom, and hopefully Doom trust's me. Thats how business should be conducted.

Most definitely true. Sadly, reality isn't always so good. I believe Doom is worthy of trust and I'm also sure the majority of members here at SSCentral are honest people, but whether all who may buy homemades from him are also trustworthy is another story.

Homemades look cool in their own way and appear quite powerful in contrast to the average soaker out there, but because of being built one by one, a potential buyer who has never handled one may not have a feel for how rugged they truly are nor do they know how well built they really are. While the long time members would have more faith, for the store to be more successful, it needs to someone offer assurance to potential buyers that they would be investing in quality craftmanship. Perhaps the store should feature one 'default' soaker design with close-up detailed pictures of different aspects of the homemade for those who want to get a feel on how Doom puts together the soaker (I.e. quality of parts, quality of joints, general styling, performance pics, etc.) as well as an example of how the homemade would be packaged and shipped (I.e. bubblewrap or foam chips, approx. size of box, etc.).

Of course, to protect Doom, he should be paid in full BEFORE agreeing to build any homemade. There's no point to start building one only to have the buyer back-out. A full pricing scheme breakdown for the homemade should be itemized (I.e. costs for parts, labor, shipping, etc.). A potential buyer could only back out and request a full refund if no part of the homemade has been built. Perhaps a buyer could also request partial refunds if they change their mind, but the homemade isn't completed. Doom would have the right, though, to charge the buyer for parts and labour used up to that point. Those things would need to be thought over a little more depending on how Doom wishes to conduct his business.

Perhaps an ongoing progress report on construction could be appended onto the store as well to give buyers an idea of how long it takes to build a homemade as well as informing future buyers of how busy Doom is building. Just a thought.

At any rate, if a pricing scheme, guarantees, and other known legal issues can be easily accomodated, having a homemade store at SSCentral shouldn't cost anything even if there are no buyers in the beginning (apart from a little time setting the store up). So long as Doom enjoys building, can afford the time, and makes some money for his work, heck, why not?

Sidenote: Doom, thanks for the apology though the 'deep' aspect is overkill, IMO. :P All I want to say is to have some trust in me and other members who state our concerns with what goes on at SSCentral. For me, while I am always looking for ways to promote my own sites, I also do my best to give credit where it is due and do what I can to help/constructively criticize other sites for an overall improvement of online Soakerdom. B)

[Commander_Gaunt]

I apologise for seeming unhelpful.

[wetmonkey442]

Doom, I've checked this and the previous topic occasionnaly, and it seems that all that has come out of both is an arguement. An arguement about this, obviously doesn't show much interest, and on top of that, not many people in the forums have expressed thier interest in this homemade store. Therefore, it is logical to assume that the homemade "store" would not be a good idea. A better idea, in my opinion, would be to seel single homemades to select individuals instead of opening an entire store. Interest might grow that way, and who knows, maybe eventually a store might be a practical idea.

[Neuro]

[at]CG
Sorry for that post up there. I guess sometimes when I have something to say regarding a matter like this I get a little "passionate" about my response :P. Then I end up saying things I really don't mean to say, and... ugh. Also, I didn't think UK laws would effect him. And that last law is hilarious :Hey, that's funny.:

Anyway, I do agree with iSoaker that you need some sort of quality assurance guarantee. But other than that, we're forgetting that this is Doom's business. Period. He decides the rules, not the forum members. I'm sure he's happy to take some input, but the final decisions are up to him. No need to pressure too much....

[Ben]

not many people in the forums have expressed thier interest in this homemade store

Actually, I've been contacted from both sides on this. It just wasn't public. I've got several offers on SSCentral and one or two at WaterWar.net/iSoaker.com. I've got over 700 PMs here so I doubt I'd be able to pick my PMs out as examples. As for your idea on not making it a store, that's somewhat the way it is now. I currently am working out a deal with a customer who will remain anonymous. I think a public sort of store/workshop would get more potential customers.

Well anyway... all your suggestions are being taken into consideration, though, I can't guarantee to run this business exactly as everyone would like. Also, if you haven't, vote in the old poll in this forum a few posts under.