Battle Swords Description

[King Soaker]

DA wrote:

Laws of physics doesn't matter?

Did I ever say Laws of physics doesn't matter? You don't seem to understand, and you certainly don't read very well! The properties of a given metal do not change with the size of the blade, period.

Then DA states:

5160 is a carbon steel type. Look at my carbon steel description.

Your description fails to properly describle modern stainless steel which is also considered a high CARBON steel. It is NOT brittle, and is superior for making blades of ANY size. The other top choice is 5160, and is similar to stainless in many ways, but does not hold an edge as well as 440V stainless which also contains vanadium. 5160 is slightly more flexibile, and softer than 440V. It is used in smaller swords like the Katana that must have high flexibility without snapping.
All types of steel fall into a fairly narrow weight range, and the statement that stainless is too heavy for a large sword is just plain foolish, and uniformed. One of the very lightest steels is Nicromox alloy, which is also a type of stainless steel.

[The dark ANNIHILATOR]

=King Soaker,Aug 19 2004, 06:25 PM] DA wrote: Laws of physics doesn't matter?

King Soaker id I ever say Laws of physics doesn't matter? You don't seem to understand, and you certainly don't read very well! The properties of a given metal do not change with the size of the blade, period.

Then DA states: 5160 is a carbon steel type. Look at my carbon steel description

King soaker: Your description fails to properly describle modern stainless steel which is also considered a high CARBON steel. It is NOT brittle, and is superior for making blades of ANY size. The other top choice is 5160, and is similar to stainless in many ways, but does not hold an edge as well as 440V stainless which also contains vanadium. 5160 is slightly more flexibile, and softer than 440V. It is used in smaller swords like the Katana that must have high flexibility without snapping.
All types of steel fall into a fairly narrow weight range, and the statement that stainless is too heavy for a large sword is just plain foolish, and uniformed. One of the very lightest steels is Nicromox alloy, which is also a* type of stainless steel.

I read well enough to see that you ignored mass, weight and pressure.
If the blade is longer, the leverage and pressure will create more stress on the blade.

As much as I like the 5160 carbon steel, most folded katanas(including the non-traditional ones) prefer to fold 1090or1085 hard carbon steel over 1050 soft carbon steel. I doubt that 5160 is the best steel blade among new state of the art modern katanas.

I don't know what stainless steel you are talking about(technicaly I do, 440V), but Im talking about the stainless steel found on pocket knifes and your local retail stores wall hangers(440+420 Stainless steel without your vanadium). And those stainless steel blades break very easily. I had enough 440 pocket knifes with broken tips. And thats the same steel I see on stainless steel swords.

If you see some stainless steel types as carbon steel types, then I don't know what you are complaining about. 5160 to you is stainless steel, to me its carbon steel. If interpretation of names is the reason for this discussion, then there is no point to it.
But right now, the suggestion you make is, that this 420 Stainless steel sword is more durable and lighter than this Carbon steel sword. And thats simply just not the way it is.
Again, if you can give me a large credible retailer that shows a "battle sword" with 440V Stainless steel, I make sure I mention my description above "440 with vanadium" excluded. But you have to show me proof of a 440V or Nicromox alloy BATTLE SWORD that is actually used by sword practicioners. Otherwise its a "what if alloy" discussion, which this thread is not. You might aswell talk about a "Coated Titanium", "Transparent Alluminum" or "Adamantium" battle sword.

[King Soaker]

Why don't you tell us how many swords you own, what type, and how long you have been collecting them instead of trying to negate facts.

Again, Joe Walters makes some of the finest swords in the world, and he uses 5160.

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/chokuto.review.htm

The vast majority of the worlds the worlds well known fighting blades are made of stainless these days. I am not talking about antique medieval swords. 1095, 1084, 1070, 1060, and 1050 are all considered cheap, simple steel, and are easy to work with. They are not used in world class fighting weapons, because the harder simple steel is, the easier it snaps. As I said, 440V stainless is far more expensive than other metals, and is much harder to work with. It's hardness is equal, or superior to all but the hardest non-stainless steel, and is far less brittle. It is also a superior metal in every knife, or sword application.

Here is a more complete rundown on various types of blade material that is far more complete than the one you posted.

Steel Alloys:
At its most simple, steel is iron with carbon in it. Other alloys are added to make the steel perform differently. Here are the important steel alloys in alphabetical order, and some sample steels that contain those alloys:

Carbon: Present in all steels, it is the most important hardening element. Also increases the strength of the steel. We usually want knife-grade steel to have >.5% carbon, which makes it "high-carbon" steel.
Chromium: Added for wear resistance, hardenability, and (most importantly) for corrosion resistance. A steel with at least 13% chromium is deemed "stainless" steel. Despite the name, all steel can rust if not maintained properly.
Manganese: An important element, manganese aids the grain structure, and contributes to hardenability. Also strength & wear resistance. Improves the steel (e.g., deoxidizes) during the steel's manufacturing (hot working and rolling). Present in most cutlery steel except for A-2, L-6, and CPM 420V.
Molybdenum: A carbide former, prevents brittleness & maintains the steel's strength at high temperatures. Present in many steels, and air-hardening steels (e.g., A-2, ATS-34) always have 1% or more molybdenum -- molybdenum is what gives those steels the ability to harden in air.
Nickel: Used for strength, corrosion resistance, and toughness. Present in L-6 and AUS-6 and AUS-8.
Silicon: Contributes to strength. Like manganese, it makes the steel more sound while it's being manufactured.
Tungsten: Increases wear resistance. When combined properly with chromium or molybdenum, tungsten will make the steel to be a high-speed steel. The high-speed steel M-2 has a high amount of tungsten.
Vanadium: Contributes to wear resistance and hardenability. A carbide former that helps produce fine-grained steel. A number of steels have vanadium, but M-2, Vascowear, and CPM T440V and 420V (in order of increasing amounts) have high amounts of vanadium. BG-42's biggest difference with ATS-34 is the addition of vanadium.
CARBON and alloy steels (non-stainless steels):

These steels are the steels most often forged. Stainless steels can be forged (guys like Sean McWilliams do forge stainless), but it is very difficult. In addition, carbon steels can be differentially tempered, to give a hard edge-holding edge and a tough springy back. Stainless steels are not differentially tempered. Of course, carbon steels will rust faster than stainless steels, to varying degrees. Carbon steels are also often a little bit less of a XPBackfire-esque shoot than
stainless steels -- I believe all the steels named below are fine performers when heat treated properly.

In the AISI steel designation system, 10xx is carbon steel, any other steels are alloy steels. For example, the 50xx series are chromium steels.

In the SAE designation system, steels with letter designations (e.g., W-2, A-2) are tool steels.

There is an ASM classification system as well, but it isn't seen often in the discussion of cutlery steels, so I'll ignore it for now.

Often, the last numbers in the name of a steel are fairly close to the steel's carbon content. So 1095 is ~.95% carbon. 52100 is ~1.0% carbon. 5160 is ~.60% carbon.

O-1
This is a steel very popular with forgers, as it has the reputation for being "forgiving". It is an excellent steel, that takes and holds an edge superbly, and is very tough. It rusts easily, however. Randall Knives uses O-1, so does Mad Dog.

W-2
Reasonably tough and holds an edge well, due to its .2% vanadium content. Most files are made from W-1, which is the same as W-2 except for the vanadium content (W-1 has no vanadium).

The 10-series -- 1095 (and 1084, 1070, 1060, 1050, etc.)
Many of the 10-series steels for cutlery, though 1095 is the most popular for knives. When you go in order from 1095-1050, you generally go from more carbon to less, from better edge holding to less edge holding, and tough to tougher to toughest. As such, you'll see 1060 and 1050, used often for swords. For knives, 1095 is sort of the "standard" carbon steel, not too expensive and performs well. It is reasonably tough and holds an edge very well. It rusts easily. This is a simple steel, which contains only two alloying elements: [at].95% carbon and .4% manganese. The various kabars are usually 1095 with a black coating.

Carbon V
Carbon V is a trademarked term by Cold Steel, and as such is not necessarily one particular kind of steel; rather, it describes whatever steel Cold Steel happens to be using, and there is an indication they do change steels from time to time. Carbon V performs roughly between 1095-ish and O-1-ish, in my opinion, and rusts like O-1 as well. I've heard rumors that Carbon V is O-1 (which I now think is unlikely) or 1095. Numerous industry insiders insist it is 0170-6. Some spark tests done by a rec.knives reader
seem to point the finger at 50100-B. Since 50100-B and 0170-6 are the same steel (see below), this is likely the current Carbon V.

0170-6 - 50100-B
These are different designations for the same steel: 0170-6 is the steel makers classification, 50100-B is the AISI designation. A good chrome-vanadium steel that is somewhat similar to O-1, but much less expensive. The now-defunct Blackjack made several knives from O170-6,
and Carbon V may be 0170-6. 50100 is basically 52100 with about 1/3 the chromium of 52100, and the B in 50100-B indicates that the steel has been modified with vanadium, making this a chrome-vanadium steel.

A-2
An excellent air-hardening tool steel, it is known for its great toughness and good edge holding. As an air-hardening steel, so don't expect it to be differentially tempered. Its outstanding toughness makes it a frequent choice for combat knives. Chris Reeve and Phil Hartsfield both use A-2, and Blackjack made a few models from A-2.

L-6
A band saw steel that is very tough and holds an edge well, but rusts easily. It is, like O-1, a forgiving steel for the forger. If you're willing to put up with the maintenance, this may be one of the very best steels available for cutlery, especially where toughness is desired.

M-2
A "high-speed steel", it can hold its temper even at very high temperatures, and as such is used in industry for high-heat cutting jobs. It is an excellent edge holder. It is tough but not as tough as some of the toughest steels in this section; however, it will still be tougher than the stainless steels and hold an edge better. It rusts easily. Benchmade has started using M-2 in one of their AFCK variations.

5160
A steel popular with forgers, it is extremely popular now and a very high-end steel. It is essentially a simple spring steel with chromium added for hardenability. It has good edge holding, but is known especially for its outstanding toughness (like L-6). Often used for swords (hardened in the low 50s Rc) because of its toughness, and is also used for hard use knives (hardened up near the 60s Rc).

52100
A ball-bearing steel, and as such is only used by forgers. It is similar to 5160 (though it has around 1% carbon vs. 5160 ~.60%), but holds an edge better. It is less tough than 5160 however. It is used often for hunting knives and other knives where the user is willing to trade off a little of 5160's toughness for better edge holding.

D-2
D-2 is sometimes called a "semi-stainless". It has a fairly high chrome content (12%), but not high enough to classify it as stainless. It is more stain resistant than the carbon steels mentioned above, however. It has excellent edge holding, but may be a little less tough than some of the steels mentioned above. And it does not take a beautiful finish. Bob Dozier uses D-2.

Vascowear
A very hard-to-find steel, with a high vanadium content. It is extremely difficult to work and very wear-resistant. It is out of production.


"STAINLESS" Steels:
Remember that all steels can rust. But the following steels, by virtue of their > 13% chromium, have much more rust resistance than the above steels. I should point out that there doesn't appear to be consensus on what percent of chromium is needed for a steel to be considered stainless. In the cutlery industry, the de-facto standard is 13%, but
the ASM Metals Handbooks says "greater than 10%", and other books cite other numbers. In addition, the alloying elements have a strong influence on the amount of chromium needed; lower chromium with the right alloying elements can still have "stainless" performance.

420
Lower carbon content (<.5%) than the 440 series makes this steel extremely soft, and it doesn't hold an edge well. It is used often for diving knives, as it is extremely stain resistant. Also used often for very inexpensive knives. Outside salt water use, it is too soft to be a good choice for a utility knife.

440 A - 440 B - 440C
The carbon content (and hardenability) of this stainless steel goes up in order from A (.75%) to B (.9%) to C (1.2%). 440C is an excellent, high-end stainless steel, usually hardened to around 56-58 Rc. All three resist rust well, with 440A being the most rust resistant, and
440C the least. The SOG Seal 2000 is 440A, and Randall uses 440B for their stainless knives. 440C is fairly ubiquitous, and is generally considered the penultimate general-use stainless (with ATS-34 being the ultimate). If your knife is marked with just "440", it is probably the less expensive 440A; if a manufacturer had used the more
expensive 440C, he'd want to advertise that. The general feeling is that 440A (and similar steels, see below) is just good enough for everyday use, especially with a good heat treat (we've heard good reports on the heat treat of SOG's 440A blades, don't know who does the work for them). 440-B is a very solid performer and 440-C is excellent.

425M - 12C27
Both are very similar to 440A. 425M (.5% carbon) is used by Buck knives. 12C27 (.6% carbon) is a Scandanavian steel used often in Finish puukkos and Norwegian knives.

AUS-6 - AUS-8 - AUS-10 (aka 6A 8A 10A)
Japanese stainless steels, roughly comparable to 440A (AUS-6, .65% carbon) and 440B (AUS-8, .75% carbon) and 440C (AUS-10, 1.1% carbon). AUS-6 is used by Al Mar. Cold Steel's use of AUS-8 has made it pretty popular, as heat treated by CS it won't hold an edge like ATS-34, but is a bit softer and may be a bit tougher. AUS-10 has roughly the same carbon content as 440C but with slightly less chromium, so it should be a bit less rust resistant but perhaps a bit tougher than 440C. All 3 steels have some vanadium added (which the 440 series lacks), which will improve wear resistance.

GIN-1 aka G-2
A steel with slightly less carbon, slightly more chromium, and much less moly than ATS-34, it is used often by Spyderco. A very good stainless steel.

ATS-34 - 154-CM
The hottest high-end stainless right now. 154-CM is the original American version, but for a long time was not manufactured to the high quality standards knifemakers expect, and so is not used often anymore. Late-breaking news is that high-quality 154-CM may again be available. ATS-34 is a Hitachi product that is very, very similar to
154-CM, and is the premier high quality stainless. Normally hardened to around 60 Rc, it holds an edge very well and is tough enough even at that high hardness. Not quite as rust resistant as the 400 series above. Many custom makers use ATS-34, and Spyderco (in their high-end knives) and Benchmade are among the production companies that use it.

ATS-55
Similar to ATS-34, but with the moly removed and some other elements added. Not much is known about this steel yet, but it looks like the intent was to get ATS-34 edge-holding with increased toughness. Since moly is an expensive element useful for high-speed steels, and knife
blades do not need to be high speed, removing the moly hopefully drastically decreases the price of the steel while at least retaining ATS-34's performance. Spyderco is using this steel.

BG-42
Bob Loveless announced recently that he's switching from ATS-34 to this steel. Keep an eye out for it, it's bound to catch on. BG-42 is somewhat similar to ATS-34, with two major differences: It has twice as much manganese as ATS-34, and has 1.2% vanadium (ATS-34 has no vanadium), so look for even better edge-holding than ATS-34. Chris Reeves has switched from ATS-34 to BG-42 in his Sebenzas.

CPM T440V - CPM T420V
Two steels that hold an edge superbly (better than ATS-34), but it's difficult to get the edge there in the first place. These steels are both high in vanadium. Spyderco offers at least one model in CPM T440V. Custom maker Sean McWilliams is a big fan of 440V, which he forges. Depending on heat treatment, expect to have to work a bit harder to sharpen these steels -- also, don't expect ATS-34 type
toughness. 420V is CPM's follow-on to 440V, and with less chromium and almost double the vanadium, is more wear-resistant and may be tougher than 440V.

400 Series Stainless
Before Cold Steel switched to AUS-8, many of their stainless products were marketed as being of "400 Series Stainless". Other knife companies are beginning to use the same term. What exactly *is* 400 Series Stainless? I always imagined it was 440-A, but there's nothing to keep a company from using any 4xx steel, like 420 or 425M, and calling it 400 Series Stainless.

NON-STEELS USED BY KNIFEMAKERS

Cobalt - Stellite 6K
A flexible material with very good wear resistance, it is practically corrosion resistant. Stellite 6K, sometimes seen in knives, is a cobalt alloy. David Boye uses cobalt for his dive knives.

Titanium
Newer titanium alloys can be hardened near 50 Rc, and at that hardness seem to take something approaching a useful edge. It is extremely rust-resistant, and is non-magnetic. Popular as expensive dive knives these days, because the SEALs use it as their knife when working around magnetic-detonated mines. Mission knives uses titanium. Tygrys makes a knife with a steel edge sandwiched by titanium.

Ceramics
Numerous knives have been offered with ceramic blades. Usually, those blades are very very brittle, and cannot be sharpened by the user; however, they hold an edge well. Boker and Kyocera make knives from this type of ceramic. Kevin McClung recently came out with a ceramic
composite knife blade that much tougher than the previous ceramics, tough enough to actually be useful as a knife blade for most jobs. It is also user-sharpenable, and holds an edge incredibly well.

[Kurayamino101]

Something to lighten the mood.

I know that this very serious debate is going on between the two of you, and we just need an intermission.

[The dark ANNIHILATOR]

King Soaker,
Thanks for the info, it was indeed more detailed and informative than my description. But the info on knife-only metals starts to go off topic, and the review site mentioned below would disagree with D2s good edge holding ability . Now having said that,-

The vast majority of the worlds the worlds well known fighting blades are made of stainless these days. I am not talking about antique medieval swords. 1095, 1084, 1070, 1060, and 1050 are all considered cheap, simple steel, and are easy to work with. They are not used in world class fighting weapons, because the harder simple steel is, the easier it snaps. As I said, 440V stainless is far more expensive than other metals, and is much harder to work with. It's hardness is equal, or superior to all but the hardest non-stainless steel, and is far less brittle. It is also a superior metal in every knife, or sword application.

- I still have to see a link about someone using a 440V stainless steel battle sword. I have no problem accepting that I am wrong, but I DO have to see a 440V sword. Like I said, my description in this thread was about the average 440 stainless steel swords, not the 440V. If 440V is only used on knifes, then it has nothing to do in this thread about swords.

This link has a lot of info on steels,
quotes from the article:
"NEW! CPM420V Stainless Steel
- Made by the Crucible Materials Corporation as an upgrade for CPM440V, this high alloy (20 percent) stainless steel was developed originally as a high-wear steel for wear and corrosion resistance (on par with most othe rpopular stainless knife steels). For a knife blade, this steel has good things going for it. It has good edge holding capabilities (you can make a very aggressive edge on blades made of CPM440V), howbeit you'll find some ductility and pliability with this steel. On the downside, it's difficult to get a decent finish on it due to its high alloy content. It's an excellent steel but not a workhorse like D2, 51200 (used for ball bearings), 440C, and 154CM/ATS34 (a modification of 440C). However, knifemakers find CPM440V
"


"D2 Tool Steel
- This is a good chrome-vanadium tool steel; it has 12.5% chromium which is not enough to make it stainless, but which in other steels, would be enough to rule it out as a sword steel. However, D2 also has vanadium and tungsten which act as grain refiners and counteract some of the weakening effects of the chrome. Because of the addition of molybdenum and some nickel, it is very tough, very hard (from the tungsten) and holds a good edge (only stellite and maybe 440V come close in terms of edge holding, but 440V is much more brittle, and stellite is a cobalt alloy, not a steel). Unfortunately, like A2 and other high alloy, deep hardening steels, you cannot create a hamon on it. A sword of this material would be incredibly tough. And despite its edge holding characteristics on paper, it is said that it holds a lousy edge and will hold it forever. Like A2, it's an air-hardening steel and is hard to heat treat properly. If you manage, then that's great. L6 may be a better choice for high performance steel (it's not too hamon-friendly either). It is said that D2 may be a little better than high carbon stainless steels. "

Looks to me, like there are no 440V swords, possibly since the quote would suggest that it would be to brittle for a sword. But even if not, there still is no 440V sword which raises the question why we have this discussion in this none-knife thread? When I talk about stainless steel in this thread, I talk about this stainless steel .The stainless steel, used for swords. Not the different 440V for knives.

What is now interesting to me is the L6 metal. I wonder if the L62 Katana sword that has been called the best sword on the planet that money can buy has any relation to it. There actually is a L6 sword. So I have no problems accepting that this sword is superior in life steel combat than carbon steel like 10XX. Since life steel combat can only be legal with dull blades, I would see no downside with the bad edge holding of L6 or D2. On the other hand, according to this site CPM3V is twice as impact resitent to D2 amd similar to 5160. But then again, I did not find a CPM3V sword on the net, so its irrelevant in this thread

[King Soaker]

DA,

I don't mean to put you down, and I am always glad to find a fellow weapons enthusiast. You still have not answered my question about your own collection, and experience. I have been collecting weapons of all types fro many years, and have extensive experience. I am not an expert on metals, but my uncle has a masters degree in metallurgy, and has worked for Newmont Mining most of his life. What I am telling you is fact, not fiction. He will tell you that 440V has a Rockwell hardness of 60C, is not brittle, and is one of the finest metals for ANY blade.

One of my most recent additions is a broadsword made by Rick Barret made from 440V stainless. This is not a wallhanger, nor are any of the weapons in my collection. I also own an Al Mar Pathfinder made of 440V, which is used by the Marines, Army Rangers, Green Beret, Airborne, and Navy Seals. I have not done any extensive research on other sword makers who use 440v, but if they want the highest quality they will use this steel. As I said previously, I own a broadsword made in Pakistan of 440C , and I would bet money this sword would snap most other swords if hit with full force. I also have a 24" Katar made in Pakistan of very thick 440C that was designed to pierce armor, and I'm sure it would do the same thing.

[The dark ANNIHILATOR]

Originally posted by King Soaker@Aug 20 2004, 12:36 PM
DA,

I don't mean to put you down, and I am always glad to find a fellow weapons enthusiast. You still have not answered my question about your own collection, and experience. I have been collecting weapons of all types fro many years, and have extensive experience. I am not an expert on metals, but my uncle has a masters degree in metallurgy, and has worked for Newmont Mining most of his life. What I am telling you is fact, not fiction. He will tell you that 440V has a Rockwell hardness of 60C, is not brittle, and is one of the finest metals for ANY blade.

One of my most recent additions is a broadsword made by Rick Barret made from 440V stainless. This is not a wallhanger, nor are any of the weapons in my collection. I also own an Al Mar Pathfinder made of 440V, which is used by the Marines, Army Rangers, Green Beret, Airborne, and Navy Seals. I have not done any extensive research on other sword makers who use 440v, but if they want the highest quality they will use this steel. As I said previously, I own a broadsword made in Pakistan of 440C , and I would bet money this sword would snap most other swords if hit with full force. I also have a 24" Katar made in Pakistan of very thick 440C that was designed to pierce armor, and I'm sure it would do the same thing.

My swords collecton will be discussed in the upcoming sword review thread. These are not swords that cost over $1000, but most of them qualify for live steel combat in re-inactments, or cut straight through bamboo without loosing the edge.
I have to admid that my knowledge about swords is not as detailed as my knowledge about Martial Arts, since it has 7 years less research. But I still can go on ebay and seperate the functional one between the wall hangers.

Im not necessarly questioning 440V, but I can not recommend people in this thread to buy a sword that does not exist in mainstream stores. This is what this thread is about. General info and suggestions of what swords to buy for certain activities. I can't tell people to pick up a 440V Flammenberge at a retail store in a parallel universe. And custom made blades would be no longer general. That would be like talking about home made soakers, instead of the CPS you can buy at a retail store. Thats no longer general.
But since you have a 440v sword, I will mention 440v in the description as an exeption.


As for 440c, I can't accept that 440c sword would have more quality than a 1050 sword, since I had already 440c blades tips snap on me. I have an open mind, so if you have a 440csword versus carbon sword link, that would be interesting. Sure, a well tempered 440c sword might have good quality, but it still would be no comparison to a well tempred 1050 carbon sword.