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Old 06-11-2008, 03:10 PM   #1
Biopyro
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Default British newbie seeking more power

Hi there.
Living in England, as I'm sure you're aware the weather isn't usually suitable for real water fights, and it tends to be something done more for fun, just to cool down during a heatwave.
I currently own a CPS 1200 and I think it's a fantastic gun, however I cannot open it as the screws are rusted, and the pump handle broke ( I replaced it with polymorph and now it's twice as good as before).
This means, it isn't enough for me! When the town carnival comes I want to be able to outgun anyone who would oppose me without having to carry something as large as the 1200. Having a lot of experience building potato cannons, I know all my plumbing bits and pieces, and I was looking to make a CPS system if at all possible, much like this one. Of course, I might not be able to get a hold of those style tanks, so I made a design as so. It's an air pressure one with 2x 3L bottles as the resevoir. I was wondering if anyone has any criticisms, and whether or not I could add a hose quickfill (and how?).
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

Welcome to Super Soaker Central! It's great to hear you're familiar with plumbing, and your diagram looks good.

I presume you have two ball valves and two nozzles just to be able to shoot differently-sized streams on the fly, and it isn't a bad idea. However, you may want to put the larger nozzle on top and the smaller one on the bottom to take advantage of the design. The water has to navigate more turns on its way to the bottom nozzle, which may restrict flow.

You could also use a rough nozzle selector as detailed in this modification article. The only difference is that it uses threaded fittings so you can swap nozzle caps; but admittedly, switching nozzles does take a good bit of time (maybe 15 seconds). A single nozzle would simplify the design and remove one of the horizontal pipes, but you have good reason to have two nozzles, so I can't complain.

As you're no doubt aware, PVC is hard to find and rather expensive in Europe, thanks in part to more environmental awareness. Recently, we've had a spate of threads in the forums about copper water guns, and there were also some older ones by joannaardway and insanitys_engineer. If you can't find them I can link to them, but I'm in a bit of a rush right now.

Edit: A quick-fill device is easy to make with parts bought in the United States. Ben used "garden hose attachments" when making the 2 Liter homemade a few years ago, and you should be able to find similar part on your side of the pond.

At any rate, good luck!
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Old 06-11-2008, 04:02 PM   #3
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

Welcome to SSC!

Bladder tanks are very expensive, or at least they seem to be expensive from my research. They can easily be even more expensive than a regulated HPA system. I'd only suggest getting bladder tanks if you can find them for cheap. Two 3 liter bottles should be plenty adequate.

If you haven't seen our page about building copper water guns (cheaper and easier to build in Europe), check this page out: http://www.sscentral.org/homemade/aph/copper.html

If you're using that pump as an air pump I would suggest buying a simpler bike bike. It's already built and reliable. Unless you size the seals perfectly it will be difficult to construct a perfectly sealing air pump. If you want to using a homemade pump, the check valve after the schrader valve isn't necessary because the schrader valve itself works like a check valve.

I need to write a guide about homemade quick fills. The "garden hose attachments" SilentGuy linked to are what I use. They're also called hose couplers. I currently have no photos of them online but you can see the type I use here: http://lawn-and-garden.hardwarestore...t--682619.aspx

GHT (garden hose thread) is compatible with 3/4 inch NPT thread, which should be compatible with 22 mm NPT thread. I don't know for sure if it is compatible with 22 mm NPT thread. Go to your local hardware store and ask about connecting copper pipe to garden hose thread. I'm sure they know how to do it.

Please document the building process and post a thing or two about it. We don't get as many people from Europe as from North America (until recently at least) so as much help information that you can provide will be helpful. If you could make a guide that would be best.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:01 PM   #4
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

Yeah PVC is more expensive here but I cannot emphasize enough the great prices, range of fittings and service at Hendersons Plastics. I have ordered almost everything from them, with (usually) next day delivery even when you don't pay. If anyone else in the UK asks, send them there.
At these low pressures though it's much easier to use drinks bottles, especially if as you say bladdered tanks are so expensive. I have a lot of 22mm pipe around and it looks great polished and varnished so that's why I'm using it.
Without a bladdered tank I think I'll skip having a municipal tap plug and fill through the blast port. Obviously in the UK we have BSP threads, but apparently 3/4"BSP fits well to a drinks bottle.
I'll definitely put the blast port on top. Obviously the flow issue is the same with bends in air systems, but I thought the nozzle might need the laminar flow to get better range, I forgot about the blast just needing high flow!
Using a check valve after the schrader means you can remove the core of the valve for better flow, and is a common trick especially when a compressor is being used to fill something up (not really relevant here!)
I'll be sure to document it well, and put it up here and instructables, looks you're a bit short on copper plans, interesting since joannaardway is a spudgunner too and made a couple of good guides for that, before she "went away" (long story).

Edit: WOW, I forgot you don't really need 16bar rated pipe in a water gun! I might well go for PVC as well if I can get some good 110mm fittings. DWV pipe is highly frowned upon in spudgunning because under pressure it can explode and shrapnelise, but at ~7 bar I guess it's not so important

Last edited by Biopyro : 06-11-2008 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

If you really wanted CPS tech in your gun, you could probably make something like solar00 is doing; detailed here.

This reminds me of my homemade (see signature), as it uses soda bottles for the pressure chamber. Currently, I'm working on a way to attach bottle to PVC, but since there is a good fit between 22 mm pipe and bottles, you shouldn't have a problem.

What is your reason for having multiple firing nozzles? Like SilentGuy said, is it for multiple nozzle settings?

Lastly, for your quick fill idea: if you're trying to put quick fill capability, then why would you need to pump it? Unless you'd pump it to add pressure, there's not really any sense in having a pump; the water filling up the bottles is enough to pressurize it.

EDIT: Didn't see his post right before this one.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

Yeah 2 nozzles means I can instantly switch between the two. I figured I may as well because I wanted the handheld part to look like that anyway so that the pump would be supported and not too vulnerable.
Is it easier to have the trigger valve at the front or back?
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biopyro
Yeah 2 nozzles means I can instantly switch between the two. I figured I may as well because I wanted the handheld part to look like that anyway so that the pump would be supported and not too vulnerable.
Is it easier to have the trigger valve at the front or back?

Whatever seems best to you; if you like the trigger in the back, then put it in the back. Unless you're forced to because of placement options, the trigger can go anywhere between the PC and the nozzle.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

I figured you may have seen joannaardway at UKSGC or somewhere. What happened to her? I got the sense that her parents didn't like her and Ragnarok's spudguns.

The location of the trigger valve probably isn't important. In conventional homemade soakers, in which there are heavy pressure chambers mounted directly on the gun, balance matters and you may find yourself having only one free hand, which can hover near the front for pumping and shooting. But you really shouldn't have much of a problem here.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

Quote:
I'll be sure to document it well, and put it up here and instructables, looks you're a bit short on copper plans, interesting since joannaardway is a spudgunner too and made a couple of good guides for that, before she "went away" (long story).

Any guides would be great. When I get emails like "I can't buy PVC where I live..." and I suggest a copper water gun, some people seem to jump ship right there even though it's not too different.

I haven't seen joannaardway's guides. She just seemed to disappear one day and I myself wondered why because she seemed so dedicated to water guns and spud guns. I, like SilentGuy, would be interested in hearing the story.

Quote:
Edit: WOW, I forgot you don't really need 16bar rated pipe in a water gun! I might well go for PVC as well if I can get some good 110mm fittings. DWV pipe is highly frowned upon in spudgunning because under pressure it can explode and shrapnelise, but at ~7 bar I guess it's not so important

Yeah, pressures in water guns often are much lower. 40 PSI is plenty adequate for top performance. You get diminishing returns fast.

Another thing to realize is that shrapnel isn't always a problem in water guns. In some designs, there's no air pressure at all and hence no chance of shrapnel (just cracks and maybe the "rocket problem"). In others, most of the water gun has parts under water pressure, so it really won't shrapnelize. The worst I've seen happen is that a part will break off, shooting water out like a rocket. That's still dangerous, but I'd rather be in that situation than a PVC bomb.

DWV is a little more common here, mostly due to ignorance. I myself have used it and it's on several guides here. Supercannon II uses DWV bell reducers. I trust DWV bell reducers more than other DWV fittings because the only difference between them and their pressure rated versions seems to be the depth of the fitting, so I think (or hope) it's safe to assume they would have simply a lower pressure rating. With that being said I have no intention to continue their use. When Supercannon II is replaced by Supercannon III I will use pressure rated couplings and bushings and the guide will be updated accordingly.

Quote:
Is it easier to have the trigger valve at the front or back?

As others said, it's mainly a comfort/opinion thing. The only real downside would be that if you add a long barrel because the valve is in the back, performance could suffer slightly due to friction forces. That would be solved by making the barrel shorter.
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Old 06-12-2008, 04:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

DWV bell reducers are the most commonly seen unrated fitting used by people who are unaware in spudding, and at 100psi I would say that's pushing it. But, as you said, compressed air holds something like 0.1% of the energy that compressed air does, and so it is much less dangerous in a high pressure system.
I'll keep the pressure low then, since if the returns aren't worth 130psi (I guess that would sting a little), then I'll only en up with hose clips pooping off.
Joannaardwary's story is an odd one, and as I don't know how much is true I don't feel it is my place to give the whole story. Basically the 2 owners of UKSGC somewhat ganged up on Ragnarok. One of them lived nearby, and was having some work done on his house. Apparently the plumber said he knew ragnaroks family and that there was no Joanna. Somewhere around then she went to "travel the world" and I for one haven't heard from her since.
I'm still not totally sure it's true but there is an odd combination of coincidences surrounding it.
That said Joanna was a respected member everywhere she posted and whyever it is that she left is a great shame in my eyes.
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Old 06-12-2008, 08:37 AM   #11
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

While I don't remember the exact figures, increasing pressure from 60 PSI to 100 PSI only increased range by 10% when I was doing tests with Supercannon II. Between 40 and 60 PSI is good for high performance without stressing the materials.

Actually, someone here (I won't mention who they are) said something similar to me a few months ago about joannaardway. I was wondering if it was true. Maybe it is. I still don't know.
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:46 AM   #12
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

Wowee. I just tested a 2L bottle to 100 psi, held on by friction alone, to a piece of 22mm pipe.I will make a compression fitting to just be extra safe, but this is coming together well.
What an awful shame that 3l bottles are only available with cider in them! Should be a good weekend.
I reckon this project should be around 40 including pipe - worth it?
I forgot to mention, toolstation are another god-like company, who are offering free next-day delicvery at the moment. Again they have a huge range of products, are very inexpensive and brilliant service. It is fair to say that I love them.

Last edited by Biopyro : 06-12-2008 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 06-12-2008, 05:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
I reckon this project should be around 40 including pipe - worth it?

Sounds fine to me. Normally I think an APH would go for about $70 to $80 in the US, so that's actually very comparable.
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Old 06-12-2008, 06:32 PM   #14
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Default Re: British newbie seeking more power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biopyro
Wowee. I just tested a 2L bottle to 100 psi, held on by friction alone, to a piece of 22mm pipe.I will make a compression fitting to just be extra safe, but this is coming together well.
What an awful shame that 3l bottles are only available with cider in them! Should be a good weekend.
I reckon this project should be around 40 including pipe - worth it?
I forgot to mention, toolstation are another god-like company, who are offering free next-day delicvery at the moment. Again they have a huge range of products, are very inexpensive and brilliant service. It is fair to say that I love them.

Hey, Glad to hear another Brit is making a Copper gun, Im building one myself. Just started putting it together finally, as i have my piping now.

Anyway, about that 2L Bottle... 100 PSI, seriously? Cool... i was just gonna use a 0.5L to start with. i guessed it was a lovely snug fit with 22mm before, but now you've just proved it for me. Ta very much.

Where in the UK are you from? We could test our guns against each other? Im over int he West Midlands, barely touching Wales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
Sounds fine to me. Normally I think an APH would go for about $70 to $80 in the US, so that's actually very comparable.

Yeah, parts wise mines cost me about 40-ish as well. Just a bit over because of my Hose as well...
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:16 AM   #15
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I jammed it on the barrel of my small copper pneumatic to test it without realising there was a wadded nail in the barrel. I wanted to inspect the bottle for any signs of damage at 100psi, but when I knocked it off the nail made a small hole in the bottle so I couldn't test it any higher. I dunno if all bottles will be such a perfect fit. I used Morrisons 17p sparkling water (Cheap or what!). Sadly I live in Surrey so there won't be any meets soon
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