Will the 'Good Old Days' ever come back?

General water gun discussion.
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Chewie
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Will the 'Good Old Days' ever come back?

Post by Chewie » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:44 am

This year I've seen the newest guns, and while the Arctic Blast and HydroBlitz are good, they don't measure up to the good old CPS models. When I was 16 I bought 'Sweetie', my CPS2500. She's good in a fight, and the strap never once broke.

I've also got 'Maxie', a Monster XL I'm restoring to top form and painting for the summer season. Today's guns just don't match the raw power and intimidation of the turn-of-the-century models, and I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why. I'm sorry if this topic has been done, but I've been away from the forum for a while.

forestfighter7
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Post by forestfighter7 » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:28 pm

Well, the answer is sadly probably not. The reasons are that companies can stock a bunch of small guns instead of one good one, can sell guns that are cheaper to make that are bad, put useless gimicks on soakers that make young kids buy them, and that they appeal to a young audience.

You can buy from eBay or make your own guns if you want the good power that the old guns had. I'm sure that there are more reasons that we aren't seeing the CPS 5000, but I don't know all of them.

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C-A_99
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Post by C-A_99 » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:53 pm

This issue has been present and has been a constant complaint since the earlier part of the decade, when the power and quality started depleting. Seems like many industries are following or have been following these trends in quality. The general consumer is stupid and won't look into any research before buying anything, and that's what their marketting takes advantage of. People who don't have any clue how much water weights can get into buying a "huge" 100 oz aquapack that "more than doubles your water capacity!" (i.e. doubles a dinky reservoir that holds as much as the average one could drink in one gulp) Plus retailers complain about larger guns taking up more shelf space, but for some reason, powering up the smaller guns doesn't seem to be an option. So, in a nutshell, it's marketting and a ridiculously bad design team. (if the design team was any better, we wouldn't have to do nozzle drills nor repairs on Flash Flood's) With marketting, it seems like the super soaker power novelty started to wear off. Hasbro also took over Larami and made things worse.

The BBT guns are be nice, but honestly, they're not much more powerful (if at all) than the Max-D's, but still have the same or better range. (however, any nozzle larger than 2x on a BBT gun is weak and range-lacking)

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Silence
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Post by Silence » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:23 pm

Yep, the companies can get away with weaker guns, so they do it. There's not even any point complaining or debating in the forums (not directed at you, by the way...just in general). It doesn't make a difference.

Buzz Bee is a lot better at keeping in contact with the pulse of the people. Their water guns are actually have decent power, explaining why they have such good range on smaller nozzles. It's just that the tubing is so small that there's too little flow and range on the larger nozzles. You don't feel kick or get range like you would with the larger nozzles of CPS-line soakers. (Oh, and it's pretty much impossible to mod Hydro Power systems. But most consumers won't know anyway, so it's not a problem for Buzz Bee.)

Buzz Bee's designs are impressive, what with the Hydro Power workaround to get CPS performance and great construction and all. So will the "good old days" come back? Maybe. Especially if Buzz Bee decides to increase the size of their tubing. But don't bet on things getting better, since just hoping that won't really change anything. eBay and hardware stores are the best options right now.

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solar00
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Post by solar00 » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:18 pm

It's indeed very strange these guns get weaker every year.

Hasbro must know the prices these CPS guns are sold for today and that there's a market for it.

Maybe they should not sell it as toy guns but as a sports articles.
Or they could sell the CPS patents to a company who is willing to make powerfull waterguns for older kids and adults.

I'm still waiting for the:
Monster XXL

Which should be a monster XL with the same power as the CPS2000MKI with colossus mod,
2x 1000ml PC, a 3 or 4 gallon backpack(optional) and the 8,5x and 11,5x replaced with 10x and 20x nozzles.

But first of all it would be fair enough if they re-release the old CPS types with the power and capacity they used to have, maybe just with a new look.

forestfighter7
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Post by forestfighter7 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:34 am

solar00 wrote: I'm still waiting for the:
Monster XXL

Which should be a monster XL with the same power as the CPS2000MKI with colossus mod,
2x 1000ml PC, a 3 or 4 gallon backpack(optional) and the 8,5x and 11,5x replaced with 10x and 20x nozzles.
If you are being serious about this I may have to be the messenger of sad news... This gun is somewhat infeasible and will likely never happen... However if you want to you might be able to make a gun like that!

andrewajt62
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Hmmmmm.

Post by andrewajt62 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:31 am

I do like the new ones but I don't have any old ones.

The new ones are all about getting people soaked faster, not the range. For example, the new flood option. You can drench opponents fast with this.

The old ones are all about range and style. They have far range but you can't get your opponent soaked fast. It is very fun though to play old school water fights.
My Armory, Shieldblaster 5000, Shieldblaster 3000
, Aquashock Arctic blast, Broke Flash Flood, Max Infushion Backpack, Sneak Attack Blaster.

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C-A_99
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Post by C-A_99 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:56 am

^An Arctic Shock or Secret Strike would take forever to soak someone, and most of the older CPS guns have significantly more output than the FF itself. Even with that, the FF's low range and dispersion of the "stream" makes it soak even slower due to how the droplets spread out. On the other hand, it does have more output than, say, the CPS's with 5x, but those have larger pressure chamber sizes. If you get close enough to soak effectively, 3-4 seconds is still plenty of time to do a full shot. Not to mention, most CPS's had significantly more capacity than the newer guns (even if the newer guns have 100 oz aquapacks attached to them).

As for my previous post (well, this one too), it was mainly aimed at being informational than a complaint.

Chewie
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Post by Chewie » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:07 am

Some of the new guns look like heavy hitters, especially the new HydroBlitz, but it just seems like there's a sort of style and craftsmanship that isn't around anymore.

It may be a silly question, but how hard would it be to actually MAKE a big CPS or Monster XL?

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isoaker_com
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Post by isoaker_com » Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:00 pm

Time moves forward so there will never be "good ol' days". I have perpetual (some say unrealistic) hope for better days, but many things would need to change for that to happen.

In terms of difficulty, many things are do-able in terms of making a bigger and better CPS 2000 or Monster XL. The sort of things many members here do with their homemades could be translated into stock soakers, but perhaps the major thing stopping it is cost. Larger soakers are more expensive to manufacture, thus would need to be priced at a higher level in orer for companies to get a good return on their investment. Retailers need to feel it is safe for them to buy X number of soakers and be able to sell them, otherwise they will not place enough orders to the manufacturers for the manufacturers to consider building them. Retailers also have to consider things like shipping costs, storage space, etc (bigger soakers weigh more, thus cost more to ship, store, etc.) In the end, it endsup boiling down to average consumer demand not being enough for retailers and manufacturers to be willing to invest in building bigger blasters currently. While the fourms seem filled with those wanting bigger and better water blasters, the number on the forums is such a miniscule percentage of the millions of consumers out there that it's already rather impressive that the community still has some effect on some directions of stock soakers.

To increase the likelihood of bigger blasters returning, we need a larger general demand for water blasters, cheaper yet better means of soaker manufacturing, cheaper transportation costs, etc. Retailers must not only be convinced that larger blasters will be a good investment, they need proof. 'til then, we'll be likely hovering around the current average size and power level of stock soakers, meaning only modders and builders will have access to more powerful water blasters as the "good ol'" soakers are aging and eventually will break after one-too-many-uses.

Though this topic has appearred and re-appearred many times, it's only natural. As for me, as long as soakers are still firing beyond the 30' range, I'm content for my typical fighting style. While I thoroughly enjoy using the bigger beasts out there, my preferred soakers are mid-sized soakers like the CPS1000, Water Warriors Blazer, or Super Soaker Arctic Blast. Dishing out too much water (is it ever too much? :p ) at once tends to shorten games more than dishing out just the right amount (IMO, the right amount is between 3x to 8x output or 90mL/s to 240mL/s).

:cool:
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The Stealthy Panda
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Post by The Stealthy Panda » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:23 pm

I am issuing a challenge. Everyone find 5-10 little kids and educate them about the "good ol' days" of soakers. Tell them that if they do not buy the new soakers, then this magical time of which you speak will return. If we all do this, then that's, like, 20,000 customers we've disposed of right there. We must make a stand now!
Hail Reeen! (Reeen is not a typo)

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isoaker_com
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Post by isoaker_com » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:31 pm

The Stealthy Panda wrote:I am issuing a challenge. Everyone find 5-10 little kids and educate them about the "good ol' days" of soakers. Tell them that if they do not buy the new soakers, then this magical time of which you speak will return. If we all do this, then that's, like, 20,000 customers we've disposed of right there. We must make a stand now!
Uh, IMO, that's not quite the right vibe. I would not want to be telling the next gen to buy new soakers because older soakers were better and the only hope of getting better stock soakers is to buy current ones. What is needed is for the next gen to first learn the joys of all scales of water fights. It's not about showing what the past offered, rather showing the good things that can be done with the present situation, then get them to want to improve things starting from now. If I were to aim for anything, it would not be to return to the "good ol'" days, but move on towards the "even better" days!

:cool:
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C-A_99
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Post by C-A_99 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:09 pm

isoaker_com wrote:Time moves forward so there will never be "good ol' days". I have perpetual (some say unrealistic) hope for better days, but many things would need to change for that to happen.

In terms of difficulty, many things are do-able in terms of making a bigger and better CPS 2000 or Monster XL. The sort of things many members here do with their homemades could be translated into stock soakers, but perhaps the major thing stopping it is cost. Larger soakers are more expensive to manufacture, thus would need to be priced at a higher level in orer for companies to get a good return on their investment. Retailers need to feel it is safe for them to buy X number of soakers and be able to sell them, otherwise they will not place enough orders to the manufacturers for the manufacturers to consider building them. Retailers also have to consider things like shipping costs, storage space, etc (bigger soakers weigh more, thus cost more to ship, store, etc.) In the end, it endsup boiling down to average consumer demand not being enough for retailers and manufacturers to be willing to invest in building bigger blasters currently. While the fourms seem filled with those wanting bigger and better water blasters, the number on the forums is such a miniscule percentage of the millions of consumers out there that it's already rather impressive that the community still has some effect on some directions of stock soakers.

To increase the likelihood of bigger blasters returning, we need a larger general demand for water blasters, cheaper yet better means of soaker manufacturing, cheaper transportation costs, etc. Retailers must not only be convinced that larger blasters will be a good investment, they need proof. 'til then, we'll be likely hovering around the current average size and power level of stock soakers, meaning only modders and builders will have access to more powerful water blasters as the "good ol'" soakers are aging and eventually will break after one-too-many-uses.

Though this topic has appearred and re-appearred many times, it's only natural. As for me, as long as soakers are still firing beyond the 30' range, I'm content for my typical fighting style. While I thoroughly enjoy using the bigger beasts out there, my preferred soakers are mid-sized soakers like the CPS1000, Water Warriors Blazer, or Super Soaker Arctic Blast. Dishing out too much water (is it ever too much? :p ) at once tends to shorten games more than dishing out just the right amount (IMO, the right amount is between 3x to 8x output or 90mL/s to 240mL/s).

:cool:
Well onto costs, I found it odd that Hasbro had the balls to do the HydroBlitz this year. But powerful does not necessarily mean big and vice versa. If they can do Flash Flood's, I imagine it won't cost much more to release something similar to the CPS 1000's or so, and something like that which would not require muiltiple triggers. Really, it's not going to be a big difference and would certainly be much cheaper and better than the HydroBlitz. Even then, all they need for more power is a little more rubber. Assuming they still need gimmicky appearances and features to sell better (heck, even BBT does that with their "Electronic Power Meter!"), stuff like nozzle selectors should help out there. Perhaps something on the box that actually compares ranges and capacity rather than just spitting out numbers would help. (i.e. "Shoots 50 feet, 15 more feet than a standard Super Soaker!", "Huge tank holds 3.4 L, more than twice the amount of a standard Super Soaker!" or "Soaks your opponent 10 times faster than a standard Super Soaker!")

Onto fighting, I find range to be very important now. Nearly any long-range gun can still soak fast (long-range guns as in K-mods and cannons, not the stuff with smaller streams), and backpack modding can add capacity for soakfests on the medium CPS's. For high-output/lower shot time blasters, the main purpose there is that a tap shot of those guns does about as much soaking as, say, a full, long shot of XP 310.

Well, at least safety isn't a blown out of proportion issue anymore (at least doesn't seem to be). Nearly all headshots are completely safe, the only potential of danger being the point blank shots in the eye, ear, or nose. But even that, the general soaking rule does not allow any of them, and the warnings of not shooting at eyes or face are on every soaker.

As for consumers, it's probably best if they're buying the right soakers, and in the bulk. The Arctic Shock showed that Hasbro could get away with gimmicks, but once people who get them realize they're pure crap, they [Hasbro] just lost more customers. Most people really only own one to two soakers (quite unlike us, heheh), and if the one they own is crap and/or breaks, they're even less likely to get another one. (even if they're invited to a 400 player water balloon fest)

Elliott
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Post by Elliott » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:37 pm

There are two majors factors; customer idiocy and the fact that the younger 'target market' of these newer soakers are too young to know that a decade ago they could get soakers that were considerably better and much cheaper.

Those with the gift of hindsight can look at these recent offerings and scoff, remembering the days when soakers were really that much better. However, we're a small minority in a market aimed mostly at younger children who are attracted to these gimmicks and who see nothing wrong with the sub-standard quality of the vast majority of the yearly offerings (and obviously, owing to the substantial price tags and low availability of these old guns probably never will).

And of course, whilst there are people out there willing to buy whatever mediocre soakers are released year on year, this will probably never change.

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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:52 am

I get somewhat annoyed by these threads. For each one of these threads, I get perhaps or or two emails as well. One email (and I'm not making this up) seriously said something like "Hey, did you notice that today's Super Soakers aren't very good?"

The factors involved have already been explained in depth by iSoaker. Believe them if you will (some people don't for some reason), but please don't complain about "the good old days." As far as I'm concerned, the days of manufactured water guns as good as 1994 to 2002 is over. If you want serious water gun power, try eBay, a homemade water gun, or modifying existing water guns.

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