Go Back   Super Soaker Central > Water guns > General
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Welcome to the SSC Forums! You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and more. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
Important note: The SSC forums are now in archive mode. WaterWar.net is the new online discussion board for the water gun hobby.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-21-2006, 05:23 PM   #61
Silence
Administrator
 
Silence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cville, VA / Urbana, IL
Posts: 3,825
UserID: 576
Default

I agree that I have no experience when compared to you guys, so I will admit that this is just speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duxburian
We still have a long, LONG way to go until homemades and mods become the standard in the upper ranks. And it will never happen in lower caliber teams. There's a lot of work to be done still...
Believe it or not, I think the lower caliber teams might be the people who need homemades the most. I've been trying to say that many people might turn to homemades to give themselves a chance against the higher caliber teams, which have access to all types of CPS weaponry. I, myself, am interested in homemades primarily because the only CPS weapon I have is a CPS 4100.
__________________
Forum rules
Silence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2006, 05:32 PM   #62
isoaker_com
Administrator
 
isoaker_com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 458
UserID: 301
Default

Quote:
I still stand by the statement that, according to basic logic and common sense, why would a person want to dish out $200 for a CPS 2000 or a Monster XL unless he or she is truly serious about water fighting?
I have no true understanding of those who dish out >$300 for a soaker. However, as it has happened more than once on eBay, somehow there are some particularly rich and/or crazy people out there.

Quote:
I stand by my statement because somebody who is not serious will not pay that much, and that person might not want to build a homemade anyway. However, for those who are serious, homemade soakers provide a viable alternative that I believe is superior to the commercial CPS soaker option.
But people are paying. However, perhaps some view it as a collector's item and intend on displaying/cherishing it and perhaps only using it limitedly. Homemade soakers are an alternative for those willing to spend the time. That's a given. Homemades can almost be made far superior to any stock model. That's also a given. The problem boils down to time versus money. I suppose some people have more money than time, thus are willing to spend more for a less-powerful alternative so long as it means they don't need to put in as much time to get it. Buying a $300 CPS2000 off of eBay may end up costing more than a homemade costs (even when factoring in time and labor), but it may also save time to acquire a soaker that's good enough for their needs.

Why are these people not asking others to build a soaker for them instead? I think it's a trust issue. People prefer trusting things made by companies since if a major problem occurs, if it's a design flaw, they can sue the company. Suing aside, more people likely believe that more safety tests have gone into the making of a stock soaker as opposed to a homemade. Sure, a lot of homemades are built well and operate safely, but I'm talking from public opinion. Even if actually stronger, the appearance of many homemades as a series of attached PVC tubes, caps, and valves can be more intimidating (and not safe-looking) than a form-moulded stock soaker.

Quote:
Clearly, homemades are a decent alternative to CPS 2000s/Monster XL (if not to WW Piranhas), but I am again going far enough to say that, for most hardcore water warriors, homemades are the only alternative. If you think you want CPS 2000- or Monster XL-like power, you'll definitely be happy (if not happier) with a homemade.
This is most definitely true. For those wanting more and can put in the time and effort, homemades will allow one to possess more powerful soakers than any CPS2000 or Monster XL. Thing is, this statement now caters to a rather small subset of the population. Even in these forums, what is the actual percentage of the membership that has even attempted modding or building a homemade soaker? With SSCentral being the main promoter of building, I'd be surprised if the number of members who've attempted a mod, let alone homemade, was even 20% of the total membership. What I don't like about the whole 'hardcore' soaking business is that it is dividing the membership. By virtue of being part of an online soaker forum, members of Soakerdom may already be considered more 'hardcore' than the rest of the public. What I fear is that too much scoffing of stock soakers, which is what the majority of the membership has access to, will only end up alienating the rest who do not have the time/energy/ability to build or buy a homemade blaster or mod their soaker.

However, this is digressing. Those who join boards just wanting a CPS2000 or Monster XL aren't likely very serious water warriors, anyhow. They are akin to guys who join online FPS video games thinking the [insert bigger weapon available here] is the thing they must possess, then end up sniped by more skilled individuals once they start playing.

More serious individuals will look at the options at hand and then make a decision based on their time, money, skills, desires, and needs.

__________________
:: Leave NO one dry! :: iSoaker.com / iSoaker.net ::
isoaker_com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2006, 05:46 PM   #63
DX
A Shrouded Figure
 
DX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Easton / New London, CT
Posts: 1,780
UserID: 75
Default

High and low caliber teams rarely fight each other. And if they do somewhere, the lower caliber team raises its standards fast. The caliber of one's team factors in numbers, tech, tactics, many variables. There are often big gaps in tech between two opposing teams, but almost never gaps in caliber since they are fighting under the same rules set and probably fight each other often.

What I've found is that when two high caliber teams engage in a long-term rivalry, they try to make better guns and methods of scoring kills. You could be surprised by the amount of advances in tech one single rivalry can create. Say, throwing water balloons gives an equal chance, and Team 1 wants to increase their advantage with water balloons. They come the next battle with lax sticks. Team 2 will bring their own sticks to the next battle. Now they are equal again. Team 1 now wants to gain a new advantage, so they bring a water balloon sling. This new item shocks Team 2 and they are spurred into action to best Team 1's new weapon. Team 2 creates a water balloon launcher. And so it soon snowballs until both sides are using tech that may be unique to them and has not been invented yet outside of their local rivalry. This is the exact sequence that triggered the Douchenator and planned future improvements on the current design.

Intense competition creates intense weapons. The APWL is the product of a single situation from one battle. Similarly, I progressed from better stock guns to k-modding to k and nozzle modding, to k, nozzle, and integrations, and so on. Intense competition creates a bigger strive for more. More range, more power, more output. The same principles of DIY in general, but much more accelerated and urgent. That's why you see so many tech advances made during the Civil War, WWI, and WWII.

It is a different story with individuals. Individuals go at their own unique pace, whether it be fast or slow. But without team rivalries, weapons such as the Douchenator and the APWL might not have been invented, or the appearance of similar weapons could be pushed back quite a long time. One single battle between local high caliber teams can change how water wars are waged around the world if they come up with a new concept, or debut a new weapon.

EDIT: Didn't see iSoaker's post come in while typing this one.

It's interesting that someone thinks that the hardcore wing [easily the weakest in soaking and in imminent danger of dying out] is dividing the membership. There are probably dozens of teams for every one higher caliber one. And I honestly did not consider our local teams to be hardcore until I really thought about how we conduct wars compared to how most others do. Most teams will not sit in an ambush position in the pouring rain for half an hour just to try and lure an enemy into a single trap. And even we don't use exclusively mods and homemades. Like in today's battle. We only had 2 modded guns today, of which one was power-modded. The rest were stock. It's how you use these guns. And in intense inter-team rivalries, you want to go for the best you can possibly get. When you get to a certain point, you look back and realize how far you've come, and how you can never go back. You can never accept the old standard, because the old standard has been outclassed. And there's nothing you can do about it, in terms of saying good things about new guns that fall short of the current standard. It's really hard.
__________________
Mess With the Best, Get Soaked Like the Rest!

2004 Red Sox - World Series Champions
2007 Red Sox - World Series Champions!

Last edited by DX : 05-21-2006 at 05:57 PM.
DX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2006, 07:01 PM   #64
Silence
Administrator
 
Silence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cville, VA / Urbana, IL
Posts: 3,825
UserID: 576
Default

Wow--this is the first truly "meaty" (that is, full of content) discussion that I've been part of here at SSC.

@ iSoaker.com (or do you prefer iSoaker_com?): I sense that you're talking about the attitude the average person has towards homemades. I agree that these people might be intimidated by such homemades, but you must remember that I'm talking about catering to the serious water warriors--and if serious people are intimidated, as Duxburian said, they will retaliate by inventing their own technology. There may be people who are financially better off by buying a CPS 2000/MXL, but those people aren't going to be high schoolers (yes, I know not all water warriors [including you] are high schoolers, but most of them are), and they'll be left in the dust by teams that are doing one-up-manship. IMO, you're either serious or you aren't, though as you said, there might be a middle ground after all. (Maybe the CPS series ended because so few people are in the middle ground ! No, that's just a joke)

@ Duxburian: I'm not sure of your opinion concerning a divided membership (hardcore vs. mediumcore), but iSoaker.com definitely has a point. There will be people who can't build a homemade, as I'm starting to realize, and they might not feel akin to the RM or Waterbridge members. However, I'm in the opposite camp: I can't access CPS weaponry, so in effect, I can't be a medium member. I either have to be satisfied with XP/MD/BBT/MI/etc., or I have to go to homemades. And I'm definitely not here because I would like to play with soakers only once a year...

However, that might define another difference. At this point, I'm more of a rising tech person rather than a rising water warrior, as I don't really have anybody to play with. Maybe having nice soakers could help, but at this point, I'll even be content to mess around with my PCgH with my neighbors when I build it. While your teams might advance through competition, I advance through contemplation ...
__________________
Forum rules
Silence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2006, 10:14 AM   #65
isoaker_com
Administrator
 
isoaker_com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 458
UserID: 301
Default

@ SilentGuy: if you're talking about the 'hardcore' group, then the rest of my statements are moot. I've always been speaking from the more typical member/public view. The ones wanting the CPS2000 or Monster XLs are more likely neither hardcore nor typical members, rather newer ones who don't know much about water blasters, but have heard various things on those soakers. The CPS2000 is still the hardest hitting stock soaker made so far and the Monster XL is still the largest stock soaker built so far.

@ Duxburian: it's not that I want the 'hardcore' element to be downplayed at all. I love reading the various tactics and water stories and learning about the new tech! What I'd like to see somehow, if possible, is not just less bashing of stock soakers, but rather trying to find ways to get members and others to engage in more organized battles using stock soakers. A new group of players cannot start off as hardcore from the start. However, if the learning curve is too steep, it will turn people away from even beginning. Once people start trying out water warfare, then start using more tactics needed to win in organized games, they will then start wanting better equipment as they find their stock soakers not quite doing what modded/homemade soakers can do. Some initial steps towards this route have been taken recently. I'm still wondering whether an agreed-upon hit/point system can be worked out.

__________________
:: Leave NO one dry! :: iSoaker.com / iSoaker.net ::
isoaker_com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2006, 12:27 PM   #66
DX
A Shrouded Figure
 
DX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Easton / New London, CT
Posts: 1,780
UserID: 75
Default

Quote:
A new group of players cannot start off as hardcore from the start.

Well...I did not consider our early wars hardcore, but looking back on them in comparison to other teams' wars, they do qualify. We had less technology, so that's the closest I've been to having organized wars with just stock soakers [I made my battle debut with a 21K].

But I will concede that route is rare, and our team is unique among teams for multiple reasons, so using it as an example is probably not the greatest thing to do.

There are currently only two standards for kills, which are tags and direct hits. [We are moving away from fist sized back toward direct hits]. I don't think it is possible to agree on a universal standard, since what determines which is used is the type of players. Direct hits requires the honor system and parley. Tags are not subjective, but they are scorned by those who have the ability to use the honor system. Direct hits are also more realistic, since in war you tend to die after being shot in the chest or back. So there's the other issue: realism vs non-realism. How far does one want to take water wars? Do you call off a battle if it rains half-way into it, or do you play right through it? Do you go around on the path, or do you plow through the thick grove of reeds as a shortcut to pursue an enemy? It makes a big difference, for realists tend to stay away from tags.

I would love to make one standard, but could not agree on tags being it, nor would some agree on direct hits.
__________________
Mess With the Best, Get Soaked Like the Rest!

2004 Red Sox - World Series Champions
2007 Red Sox - World Series Champions!
DX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2006, 04:08 PM   #67
Silence
Administrator
 
Silence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cville, VA / Urbana, IL
Posts: 3,825
UserID: 576
Default

@ iSoaker.com: It's good that you defend the newbies and less-hardcore players, and seeing as you are a huge influence beyond Soakerdom, your view has a good chance of converting many potential water warriors. However, there's nothing wrong with trying several different approaches, though I can only get local people with my approach.

@ Duxburian: I've only played in a few soakfests, and that's about it--no organized wars or anything that uses 1HK/tags. You realize that except for my CPS 4100, I basically only have an XP 270 and an Argon--but I love them. They're quite effective against bigger guns, especially since I think the CPS 4100 is a dud--its range is somewhat low, and I doubt I'll colossus it.

No matter what, it's clear that a new age of soaker warfare is dawning--whether for better or for worse. Hasbro has left us in the dumps, and it's up to us to create another water warfare community using what we've got, and it's entirely possible. Only time can tell.
__________________
Forum rules
Silence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2006, 08:12 PM   #68
DX
A Shrouded Figure
 
DX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Easton / New London, CT
Posts: 1,780
UserID: 75
Default

Quote:
No matter what, it's clear that a new age of soaker warfare is dawning--whether for better or for worse. Hasbro has left us in the dumps, and it's up to us to create another water warfare community using what we've got, and it's entirely possible. Only time can tell.

We've already been doing this. Homemades, while they existed before, did not become popular until 2004. Water balloon launchers, while they existed before, did not become that popular until 2004. Water launchers/cannons did not exist before recently. Heck, the basic k-mod recieved a load of enhancements that did not exist prior to 2004. We've come a long way, and will continue to score achievements...
__________________
Mess With the Best, Get Soaked Like the Rest!

2004 Red Sox - World Series Champions
2007 Red Sox - World Series Champions!
DX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2003 - 2011 The Super Soaker Central project