The infamous spending limit

General water gun discussion.
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Peter MJ
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The infamous spending limit

Post by Peter MJ » Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:44 pm

I read in a couple of posts on Super Soaker Central and iSoaker that one of the main reasons for the downgrade in performance/size/power of Super Soakers (and, as it appears, Water Warriors) is the supposedly customer-insisted US$20,- spending limit. I have been thinking about that for some time and wonder why they came to this conclusion (have there been many customer surveys?). Much of the evidence at hand points to many people willing to spend quite a lot of money to obtain quality Soakers (just check eBay). For US$20,- it is simply not feasible to produce anything large with sufficient quality to satisfy the more hardcore users. Super Soakers have, it least in the mind of the general consumer, always stood for oversized powerful guns. The brand image that Larami created was that of a weapon that could outdo all of its competition. All respect to Hasbro’s current competitors, but I do think that on top of most people’s wish list is one of the larger (older) Super Soakers. Hasbro’s insistence on creating smaller, less powerful guns are obviously aimed at trying to draw in a larger, younger audience, but it does not fit with the image as created by Larami. Their efforts to lower the age barrier and the selling price seem to have been brought about mostly by parents who buy the guns. I suspect that a kid growing up would rather have a large cool Soaker than some cheap EES Soaker that looks ugly and does not have that much power. Hasbro appears to have smartened up a bit with this year’s line-up and I am interested to see what they will release next year (does anyone know when the new line-up for next year will be presented/announced?) One of the problems that seem to have gotten worse with Super Soakers is their reliability. I can remember that the original lineup had all sorts of problems. Super Soakers tended to leak a lot, one would be as wet as the competition due to the watertank construction and the barrels were quite weak (talking from experience). Recently, I saw quite a lot of posts of people complaining that their Flash Floods broke within weeks of buying them. My Triple Shot’s valve broke (does not open and close properly anymore) after barely using it, probably due to heat as I left it in a hot room. So in order to make them profitably, they seem to have resorted to decreasing the quality of the materials. I don’t think this is a good development and it will probably end up damaging the brand. So the question is, are consumers really only interested in US$20,- guns or are they willing to spend more?

How about you? Would you spend more on a gun if it had more power/range than the current line-up? Or are new developments/innovations necessary to ignite new interest in more expensive guns? What would be a realistic price range for enthusiasts?

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Post by LIGHT ANNIHILATOR » Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:10 pm

I would be willing to spend $30-35 for anything more powerful than a 1700, but if people won't spend more than $20 Hasbro should not be decreasing quality. Since some old cps guns (cps 1000,1200,and 2100) retailed for $20 or less and they were good quality. The 2100 some consider the most durable gun ever, and i got mine for less than the cost of a Triple Shot, so a drop off in quality is absolutley unaccepable. There should be no drop off in quality at all, Hasbro is just charging $20 for a $10 gun. Even the rereleased cps 4100's are over piced they should be worth $15 not $30 because the dang trigger snap's so easily, long story short, Hasbro is over charging us, at least Buzz Bee Toys puts a reasonable price on their guns.
Last edited by LIGHT ANNIHILATOR on Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:11 am

When are you going to start capitalizing I, Light Annihilator? You try to act all smart and everything, but you can't use the most basic grammar!

Big Bee also mentioned shelf space along with price. You could fit less larger blasters at higher prices, but you could fit more smaller blasters and lower prices.

He also said that the price limit changes, but he hasn't been around long enough to tell us where it appears to be heading right now. If it follows the trend of recent years, more expensive larger water guns should be available next year.

Simply put, there's a variety of factors that determine what sort of water guns can be made to be profitable. At one time, bigger was better, but that apparently isn't the situation today.

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Post by LIGHT ANNIHILATOR » Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:58 pm

Thank you for pointing out my errors, let me go "fix" them.

I think this has nothing do with shelf space, since shelf space was never a problem when Larami was in charge.
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Post by SSCBen » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:14 pm

LIGHT ANNIHILATOR wrote:Thank you for pointing out my errors, let me go "fix" them.

I think this has nothing do with shelf space, since shelf space was never a problem when Larami was in charge.
Good way to handle constructive criticism! ;)

Shelf space always was a problem! Who said it wasn't a problem when Larami owned Super Soaker? Big Bee said that many of his employers were previously employed by Larami, so it's likely that the practice to increase shelf space carried over from there. Shelf space likely only became a problem (i.e. once they made bigger water guns they realized what was happening).

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Post by Peter MJ » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:14 pm

Shelf space is mostly a factor when the inventory turnover is low. If they were to make a model that would become extremely popular, it would not matter that much. Only if a model does not sell extremely well than it might become a problem committing a great deal of shelf space. Shop owners will always try to maximize the profitability per m2 as the rent that they have to pay for the location also is calculated in US$ per m2. So if you have a highly popular item with a high turnover, they would gladly commit the shelf space to it. It never heard any of the shop owners complain about the boxes for the SS100 and SS200 when they were first released in the Netherlands, as they could never get enough of them in the store. I have been to the US for half a year in 2001, and the average store size in the US is about 2 to 3 times larger than in the Netherlands. So I'm actually a bit surprised that the issue of shelf space popped up. In any case, items like the Monster XL would probably be less favorable for shop owners than a lot of smaller guns, where the combined profits would most likely exceed the profit made on the Monster XL (did it actually sell well when it was first released?). I guess the principle of profit maximization per m2 still holds true. The real question is, where exactly is the equilibrium, which size of gun would attract enough customers while at the same time appease the shop owners looking to maximize their profits for the available space?

Ben, you seem to be in regular contact with this Big Bee fellow, has he made any comments or dropped any hints regarding next years line? Trying to get any information from Hasbro is probably futile and I am kind of curious what is in store.

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Post by SSCBen » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:45 pm

I actually am not in regular contact with him, in fact he has not responded to a recent email I sent him. I am guessing that he is too busy to respond to my email, but you can send him something at jeff at buzzbeetoys.com. What I said merely was what he told us last year. ;)

Shelf-space may be a problem simply because there usually is only one shelf for water guns. I'm not sure how stores are in the Netherlands, but I suppose that larger stores here just carry more types of items, not necessarily more of each type of item. I do agree with you though. Whenever I make a trip to the store to get a water gun, they always are sold out! I never even saw new water guns from this year in person aside from some Flash Floods I saw when I went to a Sports Authority in February to get new track spikes. Possibly they don't keep too many in the back?

I've actually read some patent applications on water guns and I've seen a few new things, but nothing that should come out next year. US trademarks seem to be updated faster, given that last year I found a trademark for "SoakerTag Elite", though I thought it was an old name for the SoakerTag series of that year! I put it in the same category as "Super Soaker Maxima" which never appeared either (though I hypothesize that it was an early name for XP or CPS).

If you try hard, you can easily find out the addresses of several people listed on Hasbro's patents. Using several sources I actually found out the address and phone number of the guy who designed the Super Soaker Helix! I wouldn't suggest bugging these guys though, because you never know how they might react.
Last edited by SSCBen on Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by LIGHT ANNIHILATOR » Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:28 pm

Actually larger guns sometimes sell better than small ones, I went to Target once and they had two shelves of cps 4100's, and they soon were down to five. At the same Target and the Toys,R Us next door they had a ton of flash floods just lying there. The same thing happend at my local Sports Authority, so people still want larger guns. But Hasbro should understand that people will buy whatever they make.
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Post by Spinner » Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:33 pm

LIGHT ANNIHILATOR wrote:At the same Target and the Toys,R Us next door they had a ton of flash floods just lying there.
Perhaps that's because they'd sold out and that was a new shelf? I don't know. But I do know that it makes more sense for TRU to order many shipments of XP 270s knowing they'll sell out quickly for £9.99 each, than stocking up with SC Power Paks and watch them take up shelf and warehouse space while selling slowly.
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Post by SSCBen » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:51 pm

LIGHT ANNIHILATOR wrote:Actually larger guns sometimes sell better than small ones, I went to Target once and they had two shelves of cps 4100's, and they soon were down to five. At the same Target and the Toys,R Us next door they had a ton of flash floods just lying there. The same thing happend at my local Sports Authority, so people still want larger guns. But Hasbro should understand that people will buy whatever they make.
This is what many people said last year to Big Bee, but it apparently is not as true as you would think. "Sometimes" isn't good enough here. Most people aren't looking for anything big and don't want to spend that much money apparently. I do hope that is changing however...

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Post by Peter MJ » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:26 pm

Well, it seems they are going for the majority of the buying public now with their offerings. A Monster XL is an interesting gun, but I guess it only appeals to a limited number of people. What unfortunately we do not know is how large this majority is, 80% or more? Or perhaps less. This question can only be answered by the marketing departments of Hasbro and Buzz Bee Toys (at least if they do their jobs). It seems to me that diversifying with a combination of larger and smaller guns (like Larami used to do with their CPS/XP releases) is the golden middle way. As soon as Hasbro announces their 2006 line-up we will see if the trend of "improvement" as witnessed after the 2003 line-up will continue. Perhaps they will slowly return to the old practice of releasing for both the general and enthusiast markets. In any case I hope that the 2003 line-up taught Hasbro a bit of a lesson. Judging from the apparent disgust most people have for these guns, they probably did not make that much money on them. Also what I find to be highly amusing, and which contrasts the apparent customer preference for smaller guns as mentioned by Big Bee is the stopgap re-release of the CPS4100 in 2003/2004. If these guns were supposedly not that popular or if CPS as a technology was too up market, why re-release them as a "bridge" in anticipation of the 2005 lineup of CPS weapons?

I'll send this Big Bee a mail later to the e-mail address Ben mentioned. Perhaps he'll clear a few things up.

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