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Old 05-08-2007, 02:52 PM   #16
ZOCCOZ
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There won't be any more huge CPS soaker with power in the future for the same reason why Entertech went out of buisness: Child safety regulations. Both Hasbro and Buzz bee toys are playing it safe now. They want to keep the shoot distance from 35-40 feet but with less power. Hence the smaller nozzles. After the joke that is the Hydroblitz model, I know now that size and high price doesn't matter to Hasbro that much as previously thought. They just switched the traditionaly 10X-20X power nozzle with some burst/riot feature. And with Water Warriors, well, just set any big gun on the largest nozzle setting and you see that the up to 40 feet applys to the smaller ones.

The irony is, no one knows what the actual child safety barrier is for power in waterguns. Also, the power wasn't even that impressive in the 90s if you grew up with it. Just another case of cuddling spoiled kids who mess things up for the responsible children. There are ways of legaly going around child safety regulations or pushing their borders, but companies are to scared to try things out.
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Old 05-08-2007, 05:03 PM   #17
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That's a misconception too. According to Big Bee, safety isn't much of a concern. The larger water guns are not inherently more dangerous than the smaller ones. I'm sure people will bring up the "CPS 2000 legend" but that legend is a myth and is based upon no fact. Surely, a water gun with a stream that large will hurt and damage your eye. But those who toss around that legend don't know that smaller nozzles with more cutting pressure are actually the more dangerous ones. There's a reason some water shots sting on impact... imagine that in the eye.

Now, Entertech was a different story. Their guns looked like real guns. Kids were getting shot by police who couldn't tell the difference between a water gun and a real gun. That is seriously dangerous for obvious reasons. Of course, laws changed and the water guns could not look real any longer. The real end to battery operated water guns was the creation of the Super Soaker, with it's vastly improved power and lack of batteries.

The real problem is that larger water guns sell less units and take up more shelf space. The retail stores do not want to carry them because they make less profit. Believe it or not, but most of water gun's demographic could care less about the power. The manufacturers are at the mercy of the retail chains, so they produce smaller and less water guns. Now, that is only what I have read from Big Bee and iSoaker. I personally have no idea why they don't produce CPS 1000 class water guns at the very least. If they cared about shelf space that much too, they could simply make more compact designs, which they should have been doing to begin with. They have come close in power, but their designs are weird looking and more often than not have a gimmick involved. I suppose that's what sells.

I will admit thought that I believe the manufacturers are "playing it safe" when it comes to safety. I personally have no real idea why they don't simply increase the power. They know how to do it and I am convinced they can do it cheap. I suppose the lawsuit is more powerful than reason, sadly.
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Old 05-08-2007, 09:23 PM   #18
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I think Super Soaker started getting better with the Flash Flood. It was compact like they want, but had a small cylindrical CPS chamber to increase power. Plus the riot shot feature wasn't that bad either. But I completely understand the point. It's rather unfortunate that they stopped making CPS 1000 sized blasters.
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Old 05-08-2007, 10:15 PM   #19
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^Yes, and the FF was stopped again this year and replaced with inferior guns. (HB is too expensive and too big and AS is less powerful with an even smaller stream)

I don't think shelf space is a good excuse either. *ahem* HB... Yes, it's only one gun, but still, the general max size of the guns have been approaching that of a few older guns. I do agree safety couldn't be that big of an issue either, as larger streams are less concentrated in one area and a small stream would sting more. At the least, the large stream to the eye would still only be droplets unless you're point-blanking them which you don't do with any blaster. (or toy gun for that matter)

Hmm, I think when Hasbro took over Larami, when they start degrading the name of the supersoaker, no one really cared. Most of those who did already had CPS's, while others thought the newer guns would do I guess. It's just with the marketting I guess, especially considering most people who buy their guns don't care about range nor power that much. (or at least know nothing about water guns to really care) Happens with a lot of other things too.
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Old 05-08-2007, 10:35 PM   #20
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The question is, why should the manufacturers care about us? Millions of people go out each year, they want a water gun, and they just buy something. Don't tell me your friends are all getting Orcas and Tiger Sharks instead of Secret Strikes; they don't know the difference. They don't know things were better ten years ago. They don't know what CPS is.

If the manufacturer can get away with saving $2.00 per gun by using air pressure instead of thick rubber, then that's what they'll do. They know people are more interested in shock-and-awe...that's why they had gimmicks like flashing lights, bursts, flash floods, ooze, etc. Saying "50 feet of range" means absolutely nothing to most people.

Of course, Buzz Bee Toys has challenged that belief, which is the reason I support them - not simply because their guns aren't half-bad. Big Bee visits the forums each year. They build durable, high-power, guns. And it seems to be working. Each year, more BBT water guns are available, and more people realize that they should actually remember the names "Super Soaker" and "Water Warriors" because they're not the same, generic guns anymore. I think people are slowly realizing that Hasbro guns are garbage. Most people are never going to realize the full extent of the situation. But something's changing...
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Old 05-08-2007, 10:54 PM   #21
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Yeah, that seems to be the case. What I was saying earlier, is that there weren't enough of those who do care much about water gun quality for Hasbro to have reverted back, but I guess that's not entirely true.

So, putting it in a nutshell, the slump in quality was from economics and marketing strategies, not from safety, and not terribly much from shelf space. (except with the extremes, like the MXL)
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Old 05-09-2007, 04:19 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
That's a misconception too. According to Big Bee, safety isn't much of a concern. The larger water guns are not inherently more dangerous than the smaller ones. I'm sure people will bring up the "CPS 2000 legend" but that legend is a myth and is based upon no fact. Surely, a water gun with a stream that large will hurt and damage your eye. But those who toss around that legend don't know that smaller nozzles with more cutting pressure are actually the more dangerous ones. There's a reason some water shots sting on impact... imagine that in the eye.

Now, Entertech was a different story. Their guns looked like real guns. Kids were getting shot by police who couldn't tell the difference between a water gun and a real gun. That is seriously dangerous for obvious reasons. Of course, laws changed and the water guns could not look real any longer. The real end to battery operated water guns was the creation of the Super Soaker, with it's vastly improved power and lack of batteries.

The real problem is that larger water guns sell less units and take up more shelf space. The retail stores do not want to carry them because they make less profit. Believe it or not, but most of water gun's demographic could care less about the power. The manufacturers are at the mercy of the retail chains, so they produce smaller and less water guns. Now, that is only what I have read from Big Bee and iSoaker. I personally have no idea why they don't produce CPS 1000 class water guns at the very least. If they cared about shelf space that much too, they could simply make more compact designs, which they should have been doing to begin with. They have come close in power, but their designs are weird looking and more often than not have a gimmick involved. I suppose that's what sells.

I will admit thought that I believe the manufacturers are "playing it safe" when it comes to safety. I personally have no real idea why they don't simply increase the power. They know how to do it and I am convinced they can do it cheap. I suppose the lawsuit is more powerful than reason, sadly.

Thats one of those things that confuse me and make me now doubt about the size and shelf space issue. I work in retail and there is no unified retail concensus about size. In a matter of fact, shelfs can be modefied and customized like lego to make the space. Either that or "flexing", which is just simply shifting stuff around. Granted, small things that sell better are prefered, but why sell an Orca for $19.99 CAN that takes twice the size of a Flash Flood for $29.99 CAN? Thats what local Canadian Wallmarts are doing. Also, if large soakers are not profitable why did SS manufacture a $50 oversized Flash Flood. And those are the contradictions that make me question the "official" reasons why soakers now are they way they are. There is no clear reason why power now in retail is in the total crapper. Other than child safety. Generaly it takes more force propelling 1000 ml 50 feet away than 60ml 35 feet away. Eye accidents would become worse in point blank if there is a larger mass flying towards your eye. But if its not that, then what?
1. Expensive soakers don't sell, so have a Flash Flood that sells for the same like a CPS 2100.
2. Not enough retail shelf space, so have a Hydroblitz and Soaker Doublepacks.
3. Production costs are now higher, so cram in not necessary electronics.

There are certain things that don't add up. If soaker pressure is not an issue then why not just replicate what was in the 90s? Manufacturers could just humor us and make a 5X+ stream that at least reaches 35 feet for more than 2 seconds. People might want to call me insane, but Big long reaching streams actualy would do a good marketing ploy(it worked for Larimi). Consumers are as dumb as they ever where. Market it efficiently and you could sell them any kind of crap. And that is what is confusing. There is no convincing reason that would prevent them from going back to a 90s standard if child safety is not an issue.

Whats is the marketing strategy behind all this? Its so genius that it makes no sense. Again, i have to take the Hydrobitz as an example. You have a CPS soaker that takes up as much shelf space as a CPS 1500, costs as much as a Monster X, has internal mechanisms that make it more costly elaborate than a CPS 2000, yet doesn't outpower a CPS1000 once its out of the box.

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Old 05-09-2007, 05:02 PM   #23
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I don't know why they decided that less power was an option. All I know is that there's little incentive to increase the power, as most customers don't know or care.

Danger is a silly argument. The CPS 2000 thing was a myth, Wild Boys' CPS 3000 or whatever story was a myth. As Ben has said before, there are far more dangerous things selling. I have in no way been threatened by a commercial water gun, although some people might be somewhat scared of a CPS 2000.

1. The price issue is weird. But I think that's part of why BBT is beating Hasbro.
2. I'll agree that retail space probably isn't much of an argument. And the HB isn't even big in a normal sense; they use that size as a gimmick. For most people, having five extra feet of range isn't unique or a bonus. But having something completely out there, like a minigun setup or an electronic pressure gauge, is good.
3. Presuming a pressure gauge was necessary, an electronic one is really the only way you can measure the fill level and the pressure of a Hydro Power bladder.

Pressure actually is an issue; the debate is over.

Claiming "50 FEET!" on a box isn't going to convince anybody. How will they measure it - will they bother using a football field or a tape measure? Will they believe the marketers? What does this number mean to them? 30 feet could be amazing to them, for all we know, and it probably is, considering the range of some water guns.
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Old 05-09-2007, 06:19 PM   #24
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But like I said, consumers are mindless drones. So blinking lights don't necessarly draw in more people than big streams. Its just that the manufacture's marketing departments are lazy and take the easy way out. It all lies in the marketing. When I was a kid in the 80s and early 90s all I cared about was which gun had longer reach and a bigger stream. And that was even before Super Soaker. Same with all other kids my age back then. I don't think that has changed. If you make comercials that make the competitions performance look bad, you sell stuff. If Most people don't know about the stream difference, then brainwash them with comercial propaganda. Thats the beauty of capitalism. If consumers don't have interest at first, you make them want it using comercial tactics. Thats where the sucess in buisness lies. It is possible to make a profit with power in soakers if the marketing machine isn't being lazy. If it worked 20 years ago, why wouldn't it work now. Its time that marketing employees start earning that $25 an hour wage. They don't need a minimum wage earner like me to tell them that.

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Old 05-09-2007, 06:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentGuy
3. Presuming a pressure gauge was necessary, an electronic one is really the only way you can measure the fill level and the pressure of a Hydro Power bladder.

Actually they use the electronic gauge as a gimmick. If you've seen the Piranha internals, they use a normal pressure guage with lights behind a colored disk. (which still doesn't accurately describe the pressure level but does so better than the 2007 ones)
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Old 05-15-2007, 12:09 AM   #26
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Look at my name, and you'll find a huge CPS soaker made this year.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:41 AM   #27
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No offense, but the hydroblitz sucks. We were talk about power and size, not just size. The hydroblitz can't even shoot at least 50 feet, let alone have a longer shot time of a nozzle with at least 20X.
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