K-Mod balloons amount = pumps amount?

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ZOCCOZ
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K-Mod balloons amount = pumps amount?

Post by ZOCCOZ » Thu May 18, 2006 6:37 pm

I am curious, and I'm sure many newcomers to k-modding will have a similar question, what in your opinion would be the safest recomendable pumping amount relating to the number of balloons? Lets say with a CPS 1200 sized PC.

40 balloons = ? pumps

50 balloons = ? pumps

60 balloons = ? pumps

70 balloons = ? pumps

80 balloons = ? pumps

90 balloons = ? pumps

100 balloons(if 90 wasn't overdueing it enough for you) = ? pumps

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DX
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Post by DX » Thu May 18, 2006 8:12 pm

40 balloons = as many as normal pumps

50 balloons = 15-25 pumps

60 balloons = 10-20 pumps

70 balloons = 10-15 pumps

80 balloons = 9-12 pumps

90 balloons = 8-10 pumps

100 balloons(if 90 wasn't overdueing it enough for you) = I wouldn't pumps

This really varies by gun. A 1200 and a 2100, for example, can take different amounts of pumps. There are other variables, such as 10 being the most at 90 balloons simply because the pc has hit the walls and you can't go further. Which actually makes the ~83-90 range quite safe because you physically cannot over pressurize and therefore can't blow a valve. With 60-80, you have got to be careful because the internals do not warn you when they are taking too much.

The amount of power also varies by gun. A 1200 with 30 or 40 balloons is a sweet gun, while a 2100 with 40 is not so.

Most importantly, this is parabolic. Optimal power peaks in the 75-85 range and begins going back down if you go higher. Simply because you can't pump enough to get better stats than you get in the optimal range.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Thu May 18, 2006 8:40 pm

Note, however, that this is all assuming that a CVF has been completed and, much more importantly, that the internals have been reinforced. Once you start K-modding, the weaknesses don't lie in the actual CPS bladder--they lie in the valves, the bladder enclosure, the pump (seal?), etc. You can't push those to their limits, as they will break; but that isn't always a bad thing, since you can just replace those internals with stronger ones normally used in homemades.

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Post by DX » Fri May 19, 2006 12:52 am

A K-modded soaker will not function well if there is no CVF at 45 balloons or more. CVF is always assumed at 45 or higher, or at least, it has been assumed. And you don't need to reinforce like crazy; there is only one major weak spot: the tube connection from the vinyl tubing to the pc and from the pc to the nozzle. That plastic tube is very weak, and that is what blows out when you overpump a power modded gun.

While you can replace the trigger valve, keep in mind that it is not your ordinary 10 minute repair. Trigger valve replacement should NEVER be done if you don't need to do it. There is no repair more frustrating and tedious, except perhaps some trigger repairs. I can complete a k-mod faster than I can replace a trigger valve. Also keep in mind that only two people have ever done a trigger valve replacement, and heck, mine isn't even done because of annoying leaking from the PVC-pc connection [There is no part that you can just attach them with, you need to use layers of tape on the vinyl tubing, then use glue, then put the PVC over it and pray that it doesn't leak. Then you add more glue, and more glue, and keep doing adjustments since it's gonna leak]. Trigger valve replacement also involves sawing sections of the soaker casing, and it takes time to get the size of the cuts perfect.
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Post by Silence » Fri May 19, 2006 12:59 am

Ben has claimed TVRs aren't too hard, and the article at the main SSC site makes it appear easy. However, I'll take your word for it, as you've actually had cause to try and, unfortunately, fail :( . Thanks for the warning, though.

I still have one question, though: What is the point of having a pressure relief valve (not a check valve) in a commercial CPS soaker? If the force applied by the rubber CPS bladder is constant, then it will never increase to the point where the pressure relief valve will actually be used. Thus, the only exception I can think of is when you K-mod your CPS soaker past 45 balloons, in which the valve will always release water unless you do a CVF. Strange...

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DX
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Post by DX » Fri May 19, 2006 1:13 am

The article on SSC is a trigger valve repair, not a trigger valve replacement. This is what a full replacement involves:

Image

If you pump a stock CPS a lot of times, you will hit the pc walls before the valve, so there really is no point other than to satisfy safety standards by having the thing there and saying the soaker is safer because it is there. Like a company printing "no trans fat, no saturated fat, and no cholesterol!" on a food item that is not animal-based and therefore could not contain any of those in the first place.
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Post by Silence » Fri May 19, 2006 1:51 am

Thanks for pointing out that it's a trigger valve repair...

Maybe the pressure relief valve kicks in if the CPS bladder presses against its enclosure after a certain point and starts to act like a standard air pressure gun--even the air outside the bladder, if not for that small air hole, would compress. However, the lack of trapped air means that the soaker should blow up soon after the bladder touches the weak plastic walls (possibly a point that needs reinforcement?).

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Post by DX » Fri May 19, 2006 11:23 am

The pc walls aren't that weak. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with them, nor reinforcing them.
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Post by Silence » Fri May 19, 2006 8:10 pm

Well, maybe there wasn't too much justification too my thinking that the PC walls were weak...I just assumed that once the bladder hit the walls and the pressure started to build up, they would break, as they weren't intended to withstand pressure in the first place. Maybe they would break after the weak points you've seen from your experience have been reinforced or fixed first, though it's just speculation...

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Post by DX » Fri May 19, 2006 10:51 pm

I just assumed that once the bladder hit the walls and the pressure started to build up, they would break, as they weren't intended to withstand pressure in the first place
Of course they were not made to withstand pressure: there is no pressure in a CPS pc! The quick contraction of the bladder gets the water out, and there is no pressure needed or involved. There is, however, pressure in the tubing. When the pc starts to fill with water, the air that was in it gets displaced and forced elsewhere. So the trigger valve and plastic pipe connecting to it blow if they can't handle it. Before that happens, though, the check valve will go unless you've put a ton of epoxy or glue on the sawed areas.

For some reason the vinyl tubing doesn't break.
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Post by Silence » Fri May 19, 2006 11:01 pm

There may not be any pressure in a CPS PC, but there is once the bladder hits the PC wall. Once that happens, the bladder becomes next to useless, as pressure will build up as it would in a standard air pressure soaker. However, since the PC enclosures in commercial CPS soakers have a tiny hole in them to allow the air to escape, you can't really build up the pressure; thus, soon after the bladder hits the walls, the PC or something else will explode because the water can't be pressurized too easily. However, there's enough time for the pressure to build up and before the PC blows that the pressure relief valve can release the water, nullifying this effect. When you do a CVF, this doesn't happen, so the PC is destroyed without warning.

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Post by DX » Fri May 19, 2006 11:41 pm

There still is no pressure, even once the pc hits the wall. Cause once the pc hits the wall and is full, you can't physically pump anymore regardless of the situation! :p The pc wall is one of the last things that would blow, and it can be proven by examining a modded gun and based on real experience:

The check valve areas that you saw blow first.
The trigger valve conenction is the next to blow if the check valve doesn't.
The trigger valve itself is the next to blow if neither of the other events happen.
I have not seen further than that, nobody ever has, and I don't think you physically can. As long as there are weaker areas, the pc wall will never blow.

As side thought, it has never been proven that those little holes in the pc case actually do anything useful. Closing them up has no effect. Making them wider has no effect either.
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Post by Silence » Sat May 20, 2006 1:29 am

Well, I'm not in the mood to see if the PC wall can be destroyed, and I don't think anybody else is either...so I'll just (finally) take your word for it.

However, I'm quite certain that the holes in the PC case are there to allow air to escape. They're small enough for enough air to be released, which also mean that enlarging the hole won't do much; however, it remains to be seen whether clogging up the hole with an epoxy plug gives the soaker standard air pressure properties (that is, increase of power with more pumps). That is an experiment that is more feasible for me with my mint CPS 4100, so I might try it sometime.

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Post by DX » Sat May 20, 2006 1:51 am

It would be neat if you did do some sort of experiment with the holes. It is great to have concrete data on something rather than speculation and partial tests.
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Post by Silence » Sat May 20, 2006 2:05 am

Well, is the hole there only for spherical bladders, or is also there in CPS soakers that use cylindrical bladders? I'd love to this, seeing as it should be easy, but I could also try it on a CPH...

I think m15399 or another person mentioned in some thread or another that one could try pressurizing the PC's air outside of the bladder--and this actually seems a lot like PCg soakers, because they involve pumping to enhance already sufficient pressure and they minimize dropoff. In this context, however, there is sufficient power even when the bladder is almost empty.

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