recommendations for backup?

General water gun discussion.
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JF2015
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recommendations for backup?

Post by JF2015 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:26 pm

i need to chose a backup soaker but i am not very familiar with most of the super soakers, for my primary soaker i am going to have either a cps 1000 or 1500, any recommendations anyone?
if you get soaked, look UP first

my (rather small) arsenal: max d 6000, arctic blast,ww shark, aph (in progress)

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zeda.beta
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by zeda.beta » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:31 pm

A Max-D 3000 or WW Gremlin for a light backup, and a Max-D 6000 or Vanquisher for a heavy backup.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
Quack damn you.

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cantab
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by cantab » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:42 pm

My advice is avoid anything with a Max-D trigger - I've had too many break on me.

You'll want it to be easy to carry. You could have a small pistol, like the Sting Ray, and make a holster for it. Otherwise you want something with a strap.

Maybe something like the Water Warriors Tiger Shark or Lightning/Sphinx would work. A bit smaller and a LOT lighter than the biggest WW blasters - a full Tiger Shark is about 3 kilos and a full Sphinx about 2.2, whereas the big stuff weighs in a 3.5 - 4 kilos. May not match the CPS 1000 for power but should at least be able to make someone using it think twice.

Note I have a Sphinx and have not yet tested it. I intend to do so later this week - you may want to hold out for the review, in which I will compare it with the Tiger Shark, Pulse Master, and CPSes 1200 and 2100.
I work on Windows. My toolbox is Linux.
Arsenal:
Super Soaker: XP215, 2xXP220, Liquidator, Aquashock Secret Strike M(odded), Arctic Blast M, CPS1200, CPS2100, SC Power Pak, 3l aquapack, 1.5l aquapack
Water Warriors: Jet, Sting Ray M, Shark, Argon M, Tiger Shark, PulseMaster
Others: Waterbolt, The Blaster, Storm 500, Shield Blaster 2000, generic PR gun, generic backpack piston pumper (broken), 3l garden sprayer M, 10l water carrier:

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C-A_99
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by C-A_99 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:10 pm

Well, what kind of "backup" do you want? I think in terms of primary, secondary, and sidearms, which are related to size and usage. Max-D 6000's, FF's, Tiger Sharks, etc. would generally be secondaries, but I guess they could be used as primaries for scouts/runners.

For sidearms (I prefer the term sidearm over pistol), there are several ways to go about carrying them. The accessory modifications page shows how some of that could be done. You may not need to make a holster if the blaster fits securely in your pocket, though the clip-on can also be done. If you do use the clip-on, you'll need to wear a belt for it. These clips can also be used for carrying large water bottles and water balloon holders/canisters. Just be very careful with the latter, and if you do carry your water balloons, be sure to tie their necks closer to the edge, as far as possible from the body of the balloon.

I haven't had too many Max-D triggers break, in fact, most of my blasters with Max-D triggers have had other problems unrelated to the Max-D mechanism. The main problem with Max-D's is if the spring snaps but usually it stays intact. Lubrication with silicone may preserve the springs better and slow down the rusting process. Once the springs are ensured to be working well, keeping the ball valve(s) lubricated also ensures the valves' working order and with that, you should have little or no problem with Max-D's. That's not to say that they're reliable; the Triple Shot and Flash Flood's springs break quite easily but from my own experience, most of the springs stay working just fine.

For sidearms I've worked well with the Max-D 2000, though the 3000 may be easier to find. I only tried the Hornet for Water Warriors sidearms, and their performance was slightly disappointing when compared to the Max-D's. However, other BBT sidearms may perform better.

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JF2015
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by JF2015 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:07 am

the kind of "backup" that i want would be a secondary soaker i would carry it and my primary, no other soakers i need it to be somewhat small and lightweight for it to work with my fighting style
if you get soaked, look UP first

my (rather small) arsenal: max d 6000, arctic blast,ww shark, aph (in progress)

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cantab
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by cantab » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:18 pm

One thing I reckon is a key consideration: Your backup needs to be able to defend against opponents' mains. A light pistol may struggle in a war full of CPSes.

Your Arctic Blast might fit the bill actually. The flood nozzle will dissuade people from rushing you and the stream lets you do something from longer range. You might want to modify it to fit a strap.
I work on Windows. My toolbox is Linux.
Arsenal:
Super Soaker: XP215, 2xXP220, Liquidator, Aquashock Secret Strike M(odded), Arctic Blast M, CPS1200, CPS2100, SC Power Pak, 3l aquapack, 1.5l aquapack
Water Warriors: Jet, Sting Ray M, Shark, Argon M, Tiger Shark, PulseMaster
Others: Waterbolt, The Blaster, Storm 500, Shield Blaster 2000, generic PR gun, generic backpack piston pumper (broken), 3l garden sprayer M, 10l water carrier:

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C-A_99
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by C-A_99 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:18 pm

Well the whole point of a backup is just that, a backup. There's no real purpose of having a backup be good enough to defend against CPS's because that role is for the primary. If a backup can fight off a CPS (which even the Arctic Blast cannot), it is too heavy. Nonetheless, if carrying a slightly heavier than usual backup doesn't encumber you that much, it may still be an appealing option but personally I find it to be pointless. At one point I carried a FF along with a 2700 which was completely unecessary and made my fighting extremely clumsy. However, I also had nowhere to leave the water gun around so I had to carry it anyway. Of course, I was also carrying my Max-D 2k but the weight of sidearms is so little that it's pretty much negligible. I might as well have been just carrying the water bottles that I already ways.

But the fact that sidearms' weights are almost negligible is the whole point to using a sidearm as a backup. Despite what Call of Duty or Halo may try to tell you, soldiers only carry one primary; no one in their right mind would carry an M249 and M4 at the same time. You won't even see combinations like M4 and MP5 for most combat troops since even that is pretty encumbering. The idea is to get a good primary and have a light sidearm as a backup.

A user with a 2500 primary and a Max-D 2k sidearm is probably going to be more mobile than the user carrying a CPS 1000 and Max-D 6k.

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zeda.beta
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by zeda.beta » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:37 pm

Yeah, you're probably right, but sometimes it is helpful to have something like a FF or Max-D 6000, just for the power over a normal sidearm.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
Quack damn you.

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cantab
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by cantab » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:39 pm

C-A_99 wrote:Well the whole point of a backup is just that, a backup. There's no real purpose of having a backup be good enough to defend against CPS's because that role is for the primary.
The way I see it, if your backup can't at least do SOMETHING against opposing primaries, what good is it doing you? Say you've got your 2700 and your Max-D 2000, and let's say no-one's using anything less than a Blazer. When your 2700 gets empty (OK, that thing holds loads so maybe unlikely, but say it does), what are you going to DO with the Max-D? If it's not gonna threaten the opponents, surely it'd make no difference if you didn't have it?

Note that to me "backup" and "secondary" are a bit different. Backup I take to mean something primarily for use if the primary is out of action for whatever reason, while secondary I'd take to mean something that complements the primary and you'd be likely to use even if the primary is in full working order.
I work on Windows. My toolbox is Linux.
Arsenal:
Super Soaker: XP215, 2xXP220, Liquidator, Aquashock Secret Strike M(odded), Arctic Blast M, CPS1200, CPS2100, SC Power Pak, 3l aquapack, 1.5l aquapack
Water Warriors: Jet, Sting Ray M, Shark, Argon M, Tiger Shark, PulseMaster
Others: Waterbolt, The Blaster, Storm 500, Shield Blaster 2000, generic PR gun, generic backpack piston pumper (broken), 3l garden sprayer M, 10l water carrier:

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martianshark
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by martianshark » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:08 pm

The Pulse blaster is one of my favorite backups because of how quickly it charges. Max-Ds like the 2000 or 3000 also make good, small backups, and the Equalizer is a good heavier one. The Liquidator is also good.

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DX
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by DX » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:40 am

I definitely agree with Cantab on this one. Guns are chosen to maximize the player's strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Selecting a weak "backup" usually just gives you an extra weakness. Why bother carrying something that can't contend with enemy primaries? In a last ditch scenario, you aren't dueling other backups...you need to be able to defend against primaries with anything you carry (unless it's a specialized weapon). Since specialized weapons are mainly for one-time purposes, they don't really count here.

If you go with two guns, you want a primary and a secondary most of the time. Each gun should bring something to the table. If you have a high range gun, pair it with a high output gun, or a long shot time gun. That kind of thing. You can plug primary weaknesses with your secondary much of the time.

If you want mobility and speed, there's no reason to carry anything other than a primary. For example, 2500 and MD 2K pales against 2500 and nothing in the speed department.

There's also the personal ability aspect to consider. A user wielding a 2500 and 2100 could be faster than a user with just a 1000. Speed - Power mismatches can cost you a war if you miscalculate them. Battlefield selection also matters in gun selection. A 3 hour war at Waterbridge meant single primary. None of the advantages of multiple guns outweighed the advantage of one gun when racking up high mileage. If you had to run 10-24 miles in a single water war, you'd want one gun, too :p A single stalling defense can go on for miles by itself.

Then, there are numbers. 2v5 affects you differently than 5v5, and 10v5. The mobility requirements pretty much follow a bell curve there, with extreme distance being covered when the numbers disparity is extreme.

For the original post, if you're using a 1500 as primary, I'd recommend not having a secondary. In that case, I'd recommend using a specialized secondary, something you can use for decisive effect. A small gun capable of field-filling water balloons would be good, like an MD 5K. It would be slung across your back most of the time though, to free up your hands. A small water cannon or mobile version of a water balloon launcher would work, too. Or perhaps a trick gun, like a nozzle-drilled Defender. Small pistol, but it would break 40ft range and catch people off-guard.
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C-A_99
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by C-A_99 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:03 am

A Blazer doesn't get that much more range than some of the sidearms around, and the difference between, say, a Max-D 6000 (which is more likely to be amongst the lowest end carried) and 3000 is almost only capacity.

If your primary runs dry, sticking to close quarters with plenty of cover means you can do just as well with a small sidearm against those with secondaries. Even if CQB situations aren't available, the range differences between the highest range sidearms (such as the MD3k) and the Blazer is far, far less than the range difference between the Blazer and a primary like the CPS 2500.

Of course, if you're playing soakfests or with soakertags/variations of, it's a far different story entirely. I'd sacrifice a ton more mobility for sheer waterpower in that case and the extra water and shot time from say, the MD6k vs. the MD3k would matter.

But to mobility configurations, I've generally found that carrying my sidearm and several water bottles is well worth the slight loss in mobility; to have that extra water and backup in case any tough situations arise is helpful for certain fights. It sure beats carrying a Blazer on my back. Strapping more than one soaker at a time tends to get troublesome for me, as I keep big CPS's strapped while shooting them. Thus they can conflict with other strapped soakers.

I never got the MD5k to be good at filling WB's. The nozzle on it is too large for the balloons I use.

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DX
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by DX » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:35 am

Ultimately, it is personal preference. I never use straps for primaries unless I'm tired out from running. I also saw off stocks on Nerf guns / don't build any. For some reason, I like having the weight on my arms. It feels more free to jump, dodge, sprint, spin, etc. Therefore, an extra gun is easily strapped on my back.

A difference of like 10ft matters hard in wars...especially in CQ when you can't always dodge or shift in/back. A LOT of standoffs could have been broken with just 5ft more range.
Mess With the Best, Get Soaked Like the Rest!

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TheTyphoon
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by TheTyphoon » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:54 am

I disagree that a secondary has to be the same power as a primary. That's why it's called a Secondary. If you're any good, you can make use of a smaller blaster as a secondary....my Storm 750 has been a flawless secondary on so many occassions thanks to its accuracy, lightweight and small size. Carrying around two CPS blasters, whether people like to admit it or not, is really heavy and will certainly slow you down....ever tried carrying a CPS 1000 and a CPS 2500? And running? Instead I'm using the CPS 2500 and the Storm 750.

A good modern day equivelant is the Vindicator and a Steady Stream.

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cantab
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Re: recommendations for backup?

Post by cantab » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:31 pm

C-A_99 wrote:If your primary runs dry, sticking to close quarters with plenty of cover means you can do just as well with a small sidearm against those with secondaries
That's a fair point. The majority of my battling has been in fairly open areas. But I have battled where there's been cover, and have often been able to use to make up for having a worse weapon.
DX wrote:A difference of like 10ft matters hard in wars...especially in CQ when you can't always dodge or shift in/back. A LOT of standoffs could have been broken with just 5ft more range.
Ten feet - three metres for us metric-users - is a BIG difference though. Bigger than the range difference between the Tiger Shark and the CPS 2100.
TheTyphoon wrote:I disagree that a secondary has to be the same power as a primary. That's why it's called a Secondary. If you're any good, you can make use of a smaller blaster as a secondary....my Storm 750 has been a flawless secondary on so many occassions thanks to its accuracy, lightweight and small size.
A secondary doesn't have to MATCH a primary for performance, but it's probably not good if there's a ridiculous disparity. From memory many of the Storm blasters perform very well for their size - certainly I've had bad luck when battling against them.

Essentially, ask yourself this: Can the opposition act like your secondary wasn't there?
I work on Windows. My toolbox is Linux.
Arsenal:
Super Soaker: XP215, 2xXP220, Liquidator, Aquashock Secret Strike M(odded), Arctic Blast M, CPS1200, CPS2100, SC Power Pak, 3l aquapack, 1.5l aquapack
Water Warriors: Jet, Sting Ray M, Shark, Argon M, Tiger Shark, PulseMaster
Others: Waterbolt, The Blaster, Storm 500, Shield Blaster 2000, generic PR gun, generic backpack piston pumper (broken), 3l garden sprayer M, 10l water carrier:

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