Iffy water blaster categorization II

General water gun discussion.
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C-A_99
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Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by C-A_99 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:48 pm

Another wall of text coming in here...

The first consideration of revising blaster categorization was posted on iSoaker, and I was going to post this topic there as well. However, seeing as how they have been scaled back, I'm thinking that it's better to stick to here.

The orthodox categorization of blasters were piston, air, and CPS. With the coming of the spring powered pressure chamber as realized in the Pulse series, as well as air-based low pressure dropoff, CPS was changed to elastic pressure.

However, there's another blaster around that hasn't been considered much; the Quick Blast and now, the Shot Blast. They use a spring powered pressure chamber I believe (or it may be air seperated from water) and when this chamber moves back, it hits a pull valve open. With a bit creativity, this valve can be hooked up to a manual trigger. The very lack of this manual trigger is the reason we simply categorized them as piston powered. But if we switch them to elastic or air, it almost puts them in the same league as normal triggered blasters.

It's a strange thing when you think about it instead of just passing them off to the piston category. Perhaps we need a 2-dimensional categorization system? One direction specifies the pressure storing method while the other specifies how that is triggered. This would probably be too complicated though.

One reason I'm bringing this up is because I've been working on some site updates for HBWW for the past while and have started getting to the armory section. Currently, I'm dividing the armory into a subjective "high end, "mid end", and "low end" system, which I think is a bit more practical than sticking with the iffy standard categorization system we're used to, and categorizing by time period is the least practical.

Perhaps most people agree to keep blasters without a manual trigger classified as piston, since the operation of the pump is what causes the blaster to shoot. However, this could be shaken in the future if a new kind of triggering system is invented. Another issue I have with the old categorization system is that seperate-air pressure and CPS blasters share more operation and design similarities than pressurized reservoirs and seperate-air pressure blasters do. They are two completely different design systems that happen to use the same way of pressurizing. Nonetheless, it's still easier to categorize by pressure method, but perhaps we should do so more strictly by pressurization and ignore triggering. There would be four categories: piston (strictly no pressure chamber), air, CPS/HydroPower, and spring. Seperating CPS and spring would emphasize the differences in their capabilities which at this point are miles apart.

I think separating spring and CPS is the best idea unless people accept the 2D method. True, the differences between the Pulse Master and Steady Stream are considerable, but the differences between an XP 215 and XP 300 are even greater.

This pertains mostly to iSoaker, which is why I thought of posting it there first, but it's something everyone should think about. For now, on HBWW, I'll probably go with this method as an introduction and when explaining blaster types.

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cantab
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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by cantab » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:31 pm

How about the following:

(Note that 'military style' could be used instead if desired. e.g "Pressure Chamber, Air, Divided").

Directly Pumped: Guns where pumping directly translates to firing. Usually but not always a piston pump. eg WW Shark, Shield Blaster
Small Directly Pumped: Squirt guns. eg WW Kwik Grips.
Augmented Directly Pumped: Guns where each pump shoots, but there's something other than a direct pump to nozzle tube. They type of augmentation could be prefixed. eg WW Steady Stream, SS Quick Blast.
Pressurised Reservoir: Obvious. eg SS XP 240.
Air Pressure Chamber: Triggered guns with a separate pressure chamber where air is compressed, and the air and water are not physically divided. eg SS XP 105, SS Aquashock Secret Strike.
Divided Air Pressure Chamber: Triggered guns with a separate pressure chamber where water is physically divided from air, typically by a piston but other dividers could be used. eg WW Aqua Master Argon, Supercannon II.
Elastic Pressure Chamber: Triggered guns with a pressure chamber made of rubber or another elastic material. eg SS CPS 2000, WW Orca
Spring Pressure Chamber: Triggered guns with a pressure chamber where pressure is provided by a spring. eg WW Pulse Master.

Combined: Guns which have more than one type of pressurisation. eg Oozinator, SS Max Infusion Secret Strike
Motorised {type}: Guns which are motorised. eg. WW Jet - Motorised Directly Pumped, WW Scorpion - Motorised Elastic Pressure Chamber

Note that 'Other' should never be allowed to exist. If something novel arrives, it should be described, even if the gun lands up in a category with one member.
I work on Windows. My toolbox is Linux.
Arsenal:
Super Soaker: XP215, 2xXP220, Liquidator, Aquashock Secret Strike M(odded), Arctic Blast M, CPS1200, CPS2100, SC Power Pak, 3l aquapack, 1.5l aquapack
Water Warriors: Jet, Sting Ray M, Shark, Argon M, Tiger Shark, PulseMaster
Others: Waterbolt, The Blaster, Storm 500, Shield Blaster 2000, generic PR gun, generic backpack piston pumper (broken), 3l garden sprayer M, 10l water carrier:

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isoaker_com
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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by isoaker_com » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:52 pm

At iSoaker.com, the Super Soaker Quick Blast and Shot Blast are considered "Piston CPS Hybrid" blasters. I, too, have been wondering about needing more classification terms, but am presently leaning towards combining terms as opposed to coming up with new ones. Of course, if the community ends up coming up with a more preferred method of categorizing water blasters, I'll adjust accordingly.

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C-A_99
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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by C-A_99 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:09 pm

Putting things like the squirt gun and the Vaporizer in different categories is a bit not my idea since both work on identical principles. A long categorization list is also probably not a good idea; it's better to keep things to a small list. For example, airsoft replicas are classified to spring (manual spring pullback), electric, and gas. Nerf is even simpler; spring and air. (though Nerf has numerous possibilities of loading darts that would give more combinations than water blasters)

So far I'm still thinking that pressure chamber classification is the best idea. Perhaps PR and divided air can be seperate classifications, but a Quick Blast, Steady Stream, and Pulse Master would be in the spring category. Basically, I'll revise what I put above to the following:

> No PC
> PR
> Air PC
> Rubber PC
> Spring PC

I'm still undecided on whether to combine the two air pressure systems to one category, whatever the list implies.

This system is not perfect of course, because the differences in each category's size is quite considerable and doesn't distinguish performance very well. However, I think it's the easiest and most concise method and prevents a blaster from falling into muiltiple categories. That said, if a completely new type of pressure chamber comes around, this system will be somewhat less effective, and the spring/rubber may have to be merged as is.

I guess the best alternative is to stick to what we have and go with muiltiple categories. The fundamental change here is what "piston" means and with my system it strictly means no PC, but the characteristic of triggering is not considered. The alternative would consider the triggering and thus result in cross-listing.

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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by cantab » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:17 am

Well the "Small Directly Pumped" is clearly a special type of "Directly Pumped". It's optional, and maybe it should be removed. It's just I think squirt guns are very different to stuff like the vaporiser in terms of capability, even if the basic working is the same.

I would argue that separate air pressure chambers are more similar to cps or spring chambers than to pressurised reservoirs. The rest of the gun is the same, it's only what provides pressure in the PC that is different. The modification of the Piranha to use a 2l bottle pretty well illustrates this. Pressurised reservoirs, on the other hand, build pressure in a rather different way.

Military style starts to look more helpful, since it illustrates better that there are some main categories, with subcategories. A hierarchical categorisation does give certain issues (like if we want to include 'Triggered' vs 'Untriggered', where does it go?) , but it would generally work well I think.

My idea is that a 'piston' gun is one where pumping directly results in shooting, and there is no user-operated trigger. It's true that the 'Augmented Directly Pumped' share mechanical similarities with the pressurised categories, but from the point of view of the user, the likeness is more to standard piston pumpers I feel.

OTOH maybe things like the Quick Blast could instead be grouped by their pressurisation type, but as 'Automatic Valve' variants?
I work on Windows. My toolbox is Linux.
Arsenal:
Super Soaker: XP215, 2xXP220, Liquidator, Aquashock Secret Strike M(odded), Arctic Blast M, CPS1200, CPS2100, SC Power Pak, 3l aquapack, 1.5l aquapack
Water Warriors: Jet, Sting Ray M, Shark, Argon M, Tiger Shark, PulseMaster
Others: Waterbolt, The Blaster, Storm 500, Shield Blaster 2000, generic PR gun, generic backpack piston pumper (broken), 3l garden sprayer M, 10l water carrier:

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isoaker_com
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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by isoaker_com » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:05 pm

This thread got me thinking a bunch more. I'm still not really convinced on identifying directly that a system uses a rubber bladder or diaphragm or spring helps clarify things further for the general user. I may still change my stand on this, but that really depends on what others feel they really want to see up front.

That said, here are my current thoughts.
----------------------------
Pressurization System Categorization

While perhaps not as detailed as some may prefer, for iSoaker.com, I am really considering be adopting the following water blaster pressurization categorization system until a more preferred one if found or devised. It works better than the existing one there, fits in with how the database querying works, and doesn't feel too heavy/overly detailed.


Primary Classes:
* Piston - for all finger and/or hand pumped water blasters. These include everything from syringe-type blasters to the small finger-pumped novelty water pistols

* Air - for all air-pressure-based blasters. Both pressurized reservoir systems and water blasters with separate air-pressurized firing chambers would fall into this category

* Elastic - for all rubber/spring/other elastic material-based water blasters. The term CPS is being removed from the categorization scheme. Presently, not opting to differentiate between elastic bladders, spherical versus cylindrical, or spring basedsystems

* Motor - for all motor-based water blasters. Presently, not opting to differentiate between motors that directly pump water versus motors that drive small pistons to pump water

* Other - for an pressurization system that does not fall into the above categories. The most notable one that comes to mind is the peristaltic system used by many Shield Blasters, but there may be others that are not coming to mind at the moment.


Modifiers:
While the categories above cover the fundamental pressurization systems, there are a number of water blasters that make use of multiple types of systems. As such, some water blasters may also be given an added modifier term in their categorization

* [class 1] [class 2] Hybrid - for water blasters that use two systems in tandem to generate a stream. Example #1: the Water Warriors Scorpion would be categorized as an Elastic Motor Hybrid. Example #2: the Water Warriors Steady Stream would be categorized as a Piston Elastic Hybrid.

* [class 1] [class 2] Combo - for water blasters that use two systems independantly to generate a stream. Example #1: the Super Soaker Oozinator would be categorized as an Air Piston Combo

The order of classes before a modifier is a little subjective, but is loosely based on the perceived primary method of action.

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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by cantab » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:32 pm

That system works well enough.

I would say that Shield Blasters fit into your definition of 'Piston'.

Also, when you say "Presently, not opting to differentiate between motors that directly pump water versus motors that drive small pistons to pump water" - no motor can pump water itself, it needs to be connected to a pump. What you seem to be saying is you don't distinguish between motors driving rotary pumps and motors driving piston pumps.
I work on Windows. My toolbox is Linux.
Arsenal:
Super Soaker: XP215, 2xXP220, Liquidator, Aquashock Secret Strike M(odded), Arctic Blast M, CPS1200, CPS2100, SC Power Pak, 3l aquapack, 1.5l aquapack
Water Warriors: Jet, Sting Ray M, Shark, Argon M, Tiger Shark, PulseMaster
Others: Waterbolt, The Blaster, Storm 500, Shield Blaster 2000, generic PR gun, generic backpack piston pumper (broken), 3l garden sprayer M, 10l water carrier:

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isoaker_com
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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by isoaker_com » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:58 pm

cantab wrote:I would say that Shield Blasters fit into your definition of 'Piston'.
I thought about that, but since many Shield Blasters use peristaltic pumps that squeeze tubing as opposed to moving a pump rod back and forth, it just felt too different to classify as such.
cantab wrote:Also, when you say "Presently, not opting to differentiate between motors that directly pump water versus motors that drive small pistons to pump water" - no motor can pump water itself, it needs to be connected to a pump. What you seem to be saying is you don't distinguish between motors driving rotary pumps and motors driving piston pumps.
Fair enough. I just lacked the term "rotary pump" to be more technically correct. :p

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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by C-A_99 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:01 pm

Regarding cantab's mention that a squirt gun is radically different from a vaporizer, I mentioned than the SS 300 has the same difference with say, the Arctic Shock. Considering how often the Arctic Shock gets squirt gun range, I think it's a reasonable comparison of contrast between the two sets of blasters.

I thought Shield Blasters used regular pumps. What exactly is a "peristaltic pump"? Is it similar to those water worms?

Classification by PC type may not be the most practical (useful) as I've mentioned before, but it provides a concise and simple way of categorization. What cantab suggested with the classes is similar to the "2D" method I was mentioning.

I was thinking of something like:

Code: Select all

          PC: None : Res. : Air : Elastic :
Action:
Pump
NoTrigger  Vaporizr:  X   :  X  :StdyStream
SelfTrig       X   :  X   :  X  :QBlast
StndrdTrig     X   : MD2k :X P310:CPS2500
Though listing it out like that is probably a bad idea. Plus the categories don't go out so well since some have numerous blasters while others have very few.

I think we should ignore things like motors though, and stick to one or two "standard" ways of classification.

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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by isoaker_com » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:51 pm

A couple of Shield Blasters (the Crunchers) use regular pumps, but the ones with the rotary handle use Peristaltic Pumps (see Wikipedia).

As for squirt guns versus larger pistons, perhaps a "Trigger Pump" class would be preferred? Of course, there are also keychain and mini-collectible water guns that use pistons which are far outclassed by a Vaporizer as well so I'm not 100% sold on wanting to add another class...

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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by isoaker_com » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:24 pm

Upon further reflection, perhaps a "Novelty" class might be worth adding, at least for iSoaker.com. Things like keychains, the Soggy Doggy, and other amusing water dispensing items can be filed under that.

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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by JuchTurtles » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:09 pm

Ya, like the MX keychain. That thing beats some pistons ironically!
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cantab
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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by cantab » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:27 pm

Well the keychains are normal blasters of whatever type, just very small.

Maybe a 'non blaster' category for anything other than a water gun, like the Soggy Doggy, and also any water balloon launchers you might decide to cover.
I work on Windows. My toolbox is Linux.
Arsenal:
Super Soaker: XP215, 2xXP220, Liquidator, Aquashock Secret Strike M(odded), Arctic Blast M, CPS1200, CPS2100, SC Power Pak, 3l aquapack, 1.5l aquapack
Water Warriors: Jet, Sting Ray M, Shark, Argon M, Tiger Shark, PulseMaster
Others: Waterbolt, The Blaster, Storm 500, Shield Blaster 2000, generic PR gun, generic backpack piston pumper (broken), 3l garden sprayer M, 10l water carrier:

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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by isoaker_com » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:55 pm

Upon further considering, I'm opting to make "Novelty" a modifier and, instead, add one new category: Hose, for any hose-dependent water blasters. To me, this change would allow items, even if novelty, to still be categories by their actual mechanism, but also noted that it isn't really meant for true, typical water warfare use (i.e. the Water Ball SL175 would be classified as Elastic Novelty). As for "Hose", it will be used only for items that need the hose for charging/firing (i.e. most Speed Loaders, sprinkler-type devices, the Water Warriors Armo Dillo etc.)

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Last edited by isoaker_com on Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iffy water blaster categorization II

Post by JuchTurtles » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:10 pm

Wait, so "soakers and sprinklers" like the snake-thingy (can't remember name) are going to be in the "hose" catogory, right? That's actually a really good idea, iSoaker!
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