Ideal specifications

General water gun discussion.
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SSCBen
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Ideal specifications

Post by SSCBen » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:58 am

We've have threads before where people describe their ideal water gun but I'd like to see some more specifics. What type of water guns do you like? What dimensions (length, width, height, size of parts, etc.)? What weight? What capacities? What pump volume or pump diameter? Backpack or built-in reservoir? What special features? Range? Nozzles? Form factor? Basically, describe your ideal water gun.

Stuff that like would be helpful to people like me who want to design water guns for a wide variety of people. People would probably find it interesting too.
Last edited by SSCBen on Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Silence
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by Silence » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:55 am

I'm kinda interested in your style of large water guns that fit under the arm. It seems like a good way to balance the soaker, plus it doesn't swing around so much. As for anything else, I don't particularly care, as beyond that, it's a matter of sacrificing capacity for mobility and vice versa.

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SSCBen
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by SSCBen » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:19 am

That style was developed because I built my first CPH without thinking about how it would be held. The most comfortable position was under the arm. I don't know if I thought of it or one of my friends did and I imitated it. I've done that before with water guns like the CPS 2700 or CPS 2500 but those water guns didn't have a significant portion under your arm. I like it because it works well with typical homemade water gun shapes.

I do suppose most everything here depends on how much mobility or capacity you want or what your role in the war requires. Perhaps we should classify this a bit. If when posting you could describe your style or say that you do whatever seems appropriate that would give some perspective.

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Hunt_and_Annoy
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by Hunt_and_Annoy » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:24 am

I would like to have a firehose fed by an infinite supply of water. Oh yeah, it should also be fired in a localized vacuum without gravity. :P

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Goldfish4209
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by Goldfish4209 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:40 pm

My ideal water gun would be, hmm, about 2 feet long, height = slightly less than a foot, it would be cylindrical CPS with a big PC, 3 nozzles: 5x, 10x, 20x. It would also have a tracked pump mounted Liquidator-style under the handle, a small reservoir, and a backpack...Basically, CPS 3200 + Flash Flood + Aquapack Devastator. It would be able to function w/ or without a backpack.

Here's a drawing in Paint...Now if only I had some plastic molds...
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cantab
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by cantab » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:53 pm

I'm fully aware the following may be impossible.
Range - at least that of a CPS 2000, preferably more.
Output - quite low. Along the lines of XP class weapons as opposed to CPSes
Size - Similar to the storm 500, ww stingray, xp220, max-d 2000. Ie Something that will quite happily fit in my inside coat pocket. A slimmer design would be nice if possible.
Reservoir - built in, as large as will fit (there shouldn't be any 'dead space' in the gun). Optional external reservoir.

For a heavy weapon
Something with a LOT of streams. Like about 20. That spread out a bit, thus covering a substantial area (several feet in diameter ideally) within which it is impossible to dodge them all. Range of the furthest stream should again be comparable to the CPS 2k. Output of each is allowed to be anything, but smaller is preferred to save water.
Such a weapon would be devastating in one-hit games.

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Drenchenator
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by Drenchenator » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:49 pm

I tend to like the guns that are about 2 feet (60 cm) long. CPS 1000/1200/2100 in other words. I designed my homemade at that size because it just seemed right.

An ideal gun would have a lot of water on board if it doesn't have a backpack, say a whole gallon (3.8 L). A backpack should have at least 2 gallons in it (7.6 L), though more is better. The pump should be at least 60 mL, preferably more. Stroke length should be about a foot (30 cm).

If I had to pick 3 nozzles (which is good enough, I suppose) , they'd be 1x, 5x or optimal, and 20x or more--1x for conservation, 5x or optimal for range, and 20x or more for shear output. That should cover all the stops.

Weight is a tricky one as describe in this topic. Basically, I go for whatever works, but from experience 5 pounds (2.3 kg) is too heavy for an empty gun by itself.

Range must be as high possible.
The Drenchenator, also known as Lt. Col. Drench.

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DX
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by DX » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:37 pm

Hmm...

Size = Mid-size CPS - to about CPS 1500. I wouldn't mind a slightly larger gun if its features are compact. Longer is better than taller, narrower is also better than wider, CPS 2500 style [though I hate dead space]. Overall weight of the gun should be as light as possible, mid-size CPS weight would be ideal.

Capacity = Preferably a setup similar to the CPS 1200 - I like my guns to be able to shoot a surprisingly high amount of times for their overall size. Definitely onboard reservoir here, though I'd have an optional backpack hookup attached to the reservoir. Either that, or the reservoir can be quickly taken off, exposing a hookup site and therefore saving onboard weight. About 3-3.5 liters is enough for the res. The water intake should be at the bottom of the reservoir so that all the water gets used. The cap should be positioned at a rise at the top of the reservoir and should use large threading for easier and faster screwing.

Durability = As high as possible. Should be able to toss the gun through a bush with no fear of anything breaking. Pump shaft and trigger should be strong and well-made.

Pump = Preferably tracked for the sturdiness, though normal pumps probably allow for greater compactness. The pump should pull in high volume. I like the way the XP 150 has the transparent pump that allows you to see the water. If tracked, the pump column should be thick plastic or better yet, metal, so that it won't snap under/after heavy pressure/use.

Nozzles = 4 nozzles, one around 2-4x for skirmishing, one around 5-9x for range, and one around 12-16x for soaking. The 4th should be an adapter, allowing for the use of any homemade nozzle size.

PC = If the gun could be boosted significantly by modding, then I would go spherical. If the performance is already excellent, then cylindrical. The PC should have large capacity and be able to support 20, 25, or even more tap shots to one pressurization. That comes out to full PC shot time of 5 seconds minimum.

Shot Repetition = Not many people would care about this, but I love triggers that can fire off multiple tap shots in a very short amount of time. The XP 150 and XP 75 stand out.

Stream Speed = As fast as possible. Powerful guns tend to support higher speed, so it's normally no issue.

Range = I obviously like higher ranges. For an ideal gun, that means 50 feet minimum. The optimized range nozzle should be above 55, preferably above 60. The big soaking nozzle should be at least 40 feet.

Styling: Doesn't have to look realistic or even that good in general. I like my guns to be optimized for performance, not looks. No gimmicky designs [think CPS 4100 vs XP 75]. The trigger handle should be well-made, and preferably one piece attached by screws rather than be part of the frame halves. The reasoning here is that the parting line gets uncomfortable and can blister your hand after a long fight [think CPS 2500, 4100]
Mess With the Best, Get Soaked Like the Rest!

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Silence
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by Silence » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:05 pm

Well, it's nice to see everybody has essentially the same soaker in mind! :)

The key points, as far as I can tell:
  • structure - Medium to large (depends on the type of reservoir), perhaps 2 feet long. Format is either standard or under-the-arm. It's conceivable to have a design that's standard with a backpack attached but under-the-arm with an on-board reservoir. Strong and rigid - can't have pumps, etc. hanging around.
  • reservoir - Choice between medium/large on-board and backpack - both, not either. Socratic question: Would you actually use this feature and swap out reservoirs regularly (ie, in the middle of a fight or depending on the battlefield/game type)? Or would you prefer a semi-permanent reservoir that can be switched depending on the user's preference? Actually, this is a big question in terms of implementation - ie, quick-disconnect fittings vs. screw threads.
  • pump - "High volume," but that's impractical unless you want to sacrifice maximum pressure. Untracked < pump tube tracked < PC tracked, but use whatever best fits the design.
  • pressure chamber - Large. CPS, I'm guessing. Only DX mentioned the PC type.
  • trigger valve - Not mentioned, but likely anything that's high flow. Which means either a large pull valve, a ball valve, or a gate valve. Triggered if necessary/possible - depends on whether or the left hand supports the weight of the water gun. A greased ball valve would work best since the net force acting on it doesn't change after it's opened.
  • nozzles - Three. Small, medium, large for conservation, range, and output.
All are common-sense design attributes, although it's nice to see them on "paper".

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Drenchenator
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by Drenchenator » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:43 pm

Durability = As high as possible. Should be able to toss the gun through a bush with no fear of anything breaking. Pump shaft and trigger should be strong and well-made.
I agree, but I want to add one more thing: a strong firing valve assembly. Whatever's used to open the valve is going to take a lot of stress, so it needs to be durable and strong. Too many new guns fail in this regard.

All the connection points should be strong too. Avoiding using weak screws should get that done.
Nozzles = 4 nozzles, one around 2-4x for skirmishing, one around 5-9x for range, and one around 12-16x for soaking. The 4th should be an adapter, allowing for the use of any homemade nozzle size.
nozzles - Three. Small, medium, large for conservation, range, and output.
It seems everyone wants at least three nozzles, one for each of the big three performance characteristics. I don't know why manufacturers have to add the gimmick nozzles when something this simple will be much easier and better.
The Drenchenator, also known as Lt. Col. Drench.

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C-A_99
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by C-A_99 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:09 am

Image

'nuff said.

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Silence
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by Silence » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:53 am

C-A, I still see a few problems with that one:
1) The pressure chamber is too small.
2) No space for a trigger valve and a wire to the trigger.
But other than the gimmicky sight (which is a bit of a joke, I take it), it looks perfect.

If the bladder was cylindrical and could extend up to, say, the front of the trigger guard, it would have a much more suitable capacity. A 4" tube reservoir could screw right in, with a floppy intake tube attached inside its neck. Aesthetically, you could probably reduce the height a bit too, especially for backpack use.

A cylindrical bladder fits most mid-size designs much better. You can track pumps right over the case, or over the tube that connects the pump to the barrel. It's also much easier to access a ball valve handle on the top (as seen in high-level Super Soaker XPs) without a bulbous spherical PC.

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C-A_99
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by C-A_99 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:48 pm

Yeah, I didn't do picture very well, so the specified "1L" doesn't really agree w/ the pic. There's also hardly any room for the pull valve

Anyways, I picked spherical due to the ease of adjusting the power level via k-mod. True, you won't get a 2L PC that easily, but I still like how they work, and such large PC volumes aren't always necessary IMO. (maybe its because I don't use any water guns over .6L) However, I do agree that cylinderical PC's generally allow for better-looking water guns overall, they're just a bit annoying to work with.

Edit: Typos.
Last edited by C-A_99 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Drenchenator
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by Drenchenator » Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:49 am

Anyways, I picked spherical due to the easy of adjusting the power level via k-mod.
Well, if we're really talking ideal, you wouldn't need to adjust the power with a K-mod. But since we live in a real world--I hope at least--it's probably a good option, though I would prefer an already well-performing bladder. If it's ideal for me, it doesn't need any modification--it's already the best!
The Drenchenator, also known as Lt. Col. Drench.

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DX
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Re: Ideal specifications

Post by DX » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:03 am

Agreed. Only reason I love spherical CPS is cause it's damn easy to modify. But if you are already starting with a high power gun, cylindrical is better for design.
Mess With the Best, Get Soaked Like the Rest!

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