Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Build a homemade water gun or water balloon launcher and tell us about it.
NHdad
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 8:07 pm

Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by NHdad » Mon May 26, 2008 4:31 am

I'm combining two loves here - modifying power wheels, and water guns.

Please visit the following gallery for pics:
http://gallery.filefront.com/NHdad/138338/


It's been nagging at me that the hose on my boys' fire truck is merely cosmetic: plastic nozzle has a handle that moves, the red button doesn't do anything, there's an on/off switch STICKER, the hose has a metal cord running through it to keep it from disconnecting, and connects to a large empty chamber (a good place to put a bladder? maybe. that's where the motors for the back wheels are located, and the motherboard is in the nearby chamber...)

Here's the post on the other forum that I belong to which pushed me over the edge and onto this site:
http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/foru ... IC_ID=1793

If you take the time to look at this post, you will totally see what I mean, and how our worlds collide...


*-*-*-*
I think the easiest route might be simply to rip out the cosmetic hose, go to some kind of interactive holster/mount for a hand held water gun. There is a male plastic mount for the nozzle, and I am considering some sort of PVC holster mount - any ideas? I've never constructed anything like that...

I would love to have something that swivels 360 degrees, and tilts up and down. Imagine having the passenger facing backwards, sitting on his knees, and going nuts with a water gun.

If I could do a mount on top of the front windshield, it would be intense - like a classic WWII jeep with a mounted machine gun!

Then I imagine the boys driving hell-bent for whatever fire they've imagined in their minds, grabbing their "hoses" off the mount and spraying the neighborhood trees.

For this purpose, based upon this forum I'm considering the following options:
For my 3 year old, who would most benefit from a battery operated water gun:
The Water Warriors Tarantula
http://www.buzzbeetoys.com/USglobal/Wat ... 01660.html
especially since the 5 pound gun can stay mounted on the truck if it doesn't work out.

For my 5 year old, who I would like to get into the pump-action guns, I'm considering:
The Super Soaker AQUASHOCK SNEAK ATTACK 4-WAY
http://www.hasbro.com/supersoaker/defau ... t_id=19094
The Super Soaker Spider-Man 3 MAX INFUSION Water Soaker
http://www.hasbro.com/supersoaker/defau ... t_id=19358
or the Water Warriors Steady Stream
http://www.buzzbeetoys.com/USglobal/Wat ... 01140.html

Maybe having two different types of guns would be a disaster.

*-*-*-*
My second tier idea involves having some kind of water gun with a tank for the firetruck.

I think the easiest way to achieve this may be simply to use the Water Warriors Hydra Pak
http://www.buzzbeetoys.com/USglobal/Wat ... 01630.html
which holds 182 oz. of water, around 18 lbs. when filled...

Wait a minute, the two handed Water Warriors Power Pulse
http://www.buzzbeetoys.com/USglobal/Wat ... 01300.html
would allow for a portable backpack tank that I could mount on the back somehow detachable, and two boys could use the one tank to fight a fire, or they could each grab a tank off the back and go crazy... But it only holds 35 oz. of water, though that would be a more reasonable 3 1/4 lbs. when filled for the boys to carry...

And I love this idea -
http://www.sscentral.org/mods/backpack.html
- but I'm not sure if I can rig it to a water gun for the boys. This might be a workable option for a bladder mounted inside or outside the fire truck, but not if it relies on gravity or squeezing for pressure...

I do have a portable car jump-starter with a compressor, and I am certainly open to the idea of pressurizing some kind of homemade water tank mounted on the fire truck. It seemed possible from X-Ray's post
http://forums.sscentral.org/t632/
but (possibly because I'm new to this) I couldn't find a thread where this was discussed in detail.

There appears to be a simple solution in utilizing the Water Fun Pool Canon
http://www.buzzbeetoys.com/USglobal/WWW ... 01790.html
but it didn't have any details other than ages 4 up, and you simply drop the hose in the pool. Well, wouldn't it be a simple modification to drop it into a hard pvc tank mounted on the back of the fire truck? I still haven't figured out what I might do for the tank. How about a 26 gallon flat bottom utility tank?
http://www.tank-depot.com/product.aspx?id=125
Overkill, right?

Maybe 2L bottles duck taped together?
http://www.angelfire.com/sports/gng/ppb.htm


Any ideas?

Any links?

Any diagrams I can follow?

Any advice?
Last edited by NHdad on Mon May 26, 2008 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
This feels a bit like a support group!

aEx155
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by aEx155 » Mon May 26, 2008 5:38 am

So, what are trying to do mainly; as in, what is your higher priority? You seem to have said a lot of things in your post, and its kind of hard to understand what you're going for.

I do have an idea for a truck mounted gun, though. You cold use bladder tanks, like Dusty's water gun. Attaching the tanks to the gun and having a hose would be really like a firetruck.

Oh, and check out the link in my signature. That reference to soda bottles reminded me of my homemade. It's pretty small, and with a pump, it would work pretty well.

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SSCBen
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by SSCBen » Tue May 27, 2008 1:34 am

Welcome to SSC!

Nice project. When I have some kids I might do something similar if I can remember. ;)

I'll answer some specific questions you've had before giving a general suggestion.
I think the easiest route might be simply to rip out the cosmetic hose, go to some kind of interactive holster/mount for a hand held water gun. There is a male plastic mount for the nozzle, and I am considering some sort of PVC holster mount - any ideas? I've never constructed anything like that...
I don't know anything about PVC holster mounts or if anything like that exists. If you want some sort of holster I think taking one off an existing toy would be best. Maybe gun stores sell holsters too.
Maybe having two different types of guns would be a disaster.
It would be best to keep things as simple as possible, so I think one type of gun would be best. You can have two of that kind if you want which wouldn't add much more complexity.
And I love this idea -
http://www.sscentral.org/mods/backpack.html
- but I'm not sure if I can rig it to a water gun for the boys. This might be a workable option for a bladder mounted inside or outside the fire truck, but not if it relies on gravity or squeezing for pressure...
The backpack modification works best when you have suction, but it will make some pressure. It is not meant to be a water gun by itself if that's what you mean (I'm a little unsure).
I do have a portable car jump-starter with a compressor, and I am certainly open to the idea of pressurizing some kind of homemade water tank mounted on the fire truck. It seemed possible from X-Ray's post
http://forums.sscentral.org/t632/
but (possibly because I'm new to this) I couldn't find a thread where this was discussed in detail.
Just about every homemade water on our website can be explained in more simple terms as a pressurized water tank. That is completely possible. Check out most every guide on the website and thread on the forum.
There appears to be a simple solution in utilizing the Water Fun Pool Canon
http://www.buzzbeetoys.com/USglobal/...Fun/01790.html
but it didn't have any details other than ages 4 up, and you simply drop the hose in the pool. Well, wouldn't it be a simple modification to drop it into a hard pvc tank mounted on the back of the fire truck? I still haven't figured out what I might do for the tank. How about a 26 gallon flat bottom utility tank?
http://www.tank-depot.com/product.aspx?id=125
Overkill, right?
That's a hand/arm powered piston water gun. Note that it has no trigger so to use it you have to essentially pump the water straight out of the nozzle. This might be good if you want something with quick recharge time, but if your kids are as young as you said I would suggest a system that is already pressurized. Those water guns can be used by kids but if you're not at least decently strong you can't get good range.

My advice would be to make something that would imitate a real fire truck as much as possible. While I know nothing about how fire trucks actually work, I imagine they use gas powered pumps. The most important thing here is that the pressure is constant over the entire duration of the shot. If you used an air pressure system pressure and therefore range and water flow will drop as you use more water. Some CPS system is ideal.

The most basic CPS system is latex tubing. If you scale up something like my old Leftovers water gun you should get a pretty great water gun. The 35 PSI of the tubes gives you pretty good performance (40 feet of range+).

You'd just plug it into the hose to pressurize and remove the hose connection when it is near fully pressurized. Then you have plenty of pressurized water. With 6 pieces of the most commonly used latex tubing (McMaster-Carr part number 5234K53) at 3 feet long you should have about 19 liters of water. You can use common garden hose nozzles as a trigger and nozzle assembly then. This will be more expensive than buying an existing water gun and modifying it to work, but I think it would be much more worthwhile because you can have more water capacity.

I've been actually considering making something similar in a backpack arrangement and if you want me to do that project first I can.

Let us know if you have any other ideas or questions. :)

NHdad
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by NHdad » Tue May 27, 2008 2:36 am

Thanks Ben.

I really appreciate your detailed post.

I'm still hoping someone has some ideas for a mount/turret. I haven't given up on that idea for on top of the front windshield.

I am strongly leaning tank apparatus for the back, so the question is store-bought (water warriors hydra pak or power pulse) or homemade (some version less sophisticated than Dusty's Water Gun http://forums.sscentral.org/t4669/, though I am totally going to stop by my local water treatment store), or both...

Is it possible to modify the hydra pak or power pulse to a homemade reservior somewhere on the truck, with a secure seal, that maintains enough internal pressure?
Maybe someone in this forum knows the perfect thread for this question.

My confusion with a backpack for the water is so basic - how to/does the water move from the storage chamber to the gun, ready to shoot.

Thanks for the water cannon input - based upon that description I'm ruling it out. At least until they're older, and by then I will probably be able to step up to a modified gun we'd all be happier with.

The basic idea still stands - how hard would it be to attach a hose to a factory-made battery-operated water gun, and drop that hose into a homemade water container?


I got a lot out of your leftovers link. It made me reconsider an entirely homemade operation. I know now it's just a matter of time...

I had a question:
>With 6 pieces of the most commonly used latex tubing (McMaster-Carr part number 5234K53) at 3 feet long you should have about 19 liters of water.

6 pieces? Totaling 18 feet of tubing? Pieced together somehow? May be basic, but I didn't follow.

>This will be more expensive than buying an existing water gun and modifying it to work, but I think it would be much more worthwhile because you can have more water capacity.

Not to mention the daddy points, modeling problem solving and engineering, and raw fun.

>I've been actually considering making something similar in a backpack arrangement and if you want me to do that project first I can.

I'm interested. It does sound cool, doesn't it? I'm totally excited about the whole thing, but I think my lack of experience with anything like this will result in a couple of weeks of research before I go forward on this project.
This feels a bit like a support group!

aEx155
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by aEx155 » Tue May 27, 2008 2:57 am

(some version less sophisticated than Dusty's Water Gun http://forums.sscentral.org/t4669/, though I am totally going to stop by my local water treatment store)
Well, you could just get a bladder tank, some hose, and a nozzle/trigger system.

Image

Pretty simple CPS system, easy to fill and use. You could just have a tank mounted in the back then have the hose coiled up, hand the nozzle system and your set!
I'm still hoping someone has some ideas for a mount/turret. I haven't given up on that idea for on top of the front windshield.
For this, you could make something out of wood, hinges, and springs, all of which should be available at Home Depot. Just add a place to store the nozzle on it, then you're set. When I have time I'll post details later.
My confusion with a backpack for the water is so basic - how to/does the water move from the storage chamber to the gun, ready to shoot.
You have to determine whether or not it is a :

1) Pressurized backpack: the backpack is the pressure chamber. It is filled with water, pressurized, then water is shot from there. Example here
2) Reservoir backpack: Water is held in a non-pressurized container and add on to/replaces the water reservoir on the gun. Example here

Lastly, (due to time constrictions; I would write more but I can't)
The basic idea still stands - how hard would it be to attach a hose to a factory-made battery-operated water gun, and drop that hose into a homemade water container?
You would find where the water enters the pump inside the gun, attach a hose there, then drop the hose into the reservoir, like a backpack mod (see above). Simple as that.
Last edited by aEx155 on Tue May 27, 2008 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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used man
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by used man » Tue May 27, 2008 4:33 am

for the nozzle you should get a trigger activated water balloon filler, right shape color and easy to shoot.

edit: wait, how big are these things if there rideable things you should build leftovers in it like ben said. If there big then dont do the filler thing.
Last edited by used man on Tue May 27, 2008 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
"dont mess with used man!"-sloganizer.net
thanks to dx for link to website

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Silence
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by Silence » Tue May 27, 2008 8:57 pm

NHdad, you could probably mount a water gun to nearly anything. I would suggest drilling a couple holes in the water gun, either before or after opening it up. Then a couple screws and bolts could be used to attach it to any fixture. If you have a cheap camera tripod lying around, that might do, or maybe you could build something yourself.

That said, here we would definitely point you toward homemade water guns :) . I agree most of the designs are overkill for young children and electric karts. The diagram that aEx linked to should work very well. It would use a high-capacity, constant-range constant pressure bladder and a quick-fill device as used in Ben's 2-liter homemade. That means you can plug in the hose attachment, fill it up, and shoot.

I would have some concerns with the trigger, though. Ball valves are the best trigger valves for water guns because they don't restrict flow at all: when they're open, there's a clear path through. But it can take some effort to turn, unless you buy a brass one or get a plastic one and add a lever to it. But even then, that type of valve can be inconvenient. Depending on how much work you want to do, a hose handle (easy to buy), a pull valve (hard to build, but you can buy push button variants), or a gate valve (easy to buy) may work well. In my opinion, a hose handle would work well for your purposes. Unless you find the range of regular hoses to be grossly insufficient, there shouldn't be much of a problem.

Anyway, good luck with the build, and I'd like to see some pictures once you're done! :)

NHdad
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by NHdad » Tue May 27, 2008 9:15 pm

Thanks for all the responses so far. I'm knew nothing about this in the beginning, and I am learning a ton with each post.

Used man:

Your trigger activated water balloon filler idea...
Do you mean like this one? http://www.isoaker.com/Armoury/soaker_s ... loonfiller This was the only one I found, and I couldn't see how it attached.

I like the idea a lot because of the on/off mechanism. I'm getting more comfortable with the idea of the trigger mechanism being a red on/off valve like on RolandTower's Ultimate Water Gun.

I've been researching fire hoses, and it seems like the on/off valve is located on the truck. I'd rather it be near the nozzle, for one-person gun-like operation, like all of the homemades I'm seeing in this forum.

aEx155:

I'm really considering a design like the one you posted. I wonder if you can help me with providing more specs.

I'm wondering if this set up will allow for child-friendly fill-ups. I don't want my boys soaking the truck with too complex a mechanism. I think if its as simple as unsrewing a cap, putting the garden hose in a hole, and then screwing back on a cap, then my 5 year old would be in heaven.

If I have to be the one doing the refilling, that's acceptable but not ideal.

Can anyone describe (or provide a link for) the process of the fill up for the pressurized and reservoir backpack?

If I have to pressurize the tank, like in RolandTower's Ultimate Water Gun, how long will it retain the PSI? Do you need to repressurize every time you fill up? Every 5-10 tank-fulls?


In Dusty's water gun, is it simply the weight of the water and the stretch of the bladder that provide the pressure needed for the gun's output PSI to equal the garden hose input?

I have kind of a weak water pressure out of my garden hose. Can I put a nozzle of some kind on the end of my garden hose, on the end of my water gun, to increase the distance of the spray?
This feels a bit like a support group!

NHdad
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by NHdad » Tue May 27, 2008 9:23 pm

What service!

I post, and find some of my questions already answered by Silent Guy!

Your specifics about the valve were exactly what I am looking for.

By hose handle, do you mean the gun attachment to a garden hose? My boys would be bothered by the strength it takes to do that. At age four, he had no problem turning a firehose garden nozzel to change from spray to stream. I thought a lever might be something my 3 year old could turn - but you think that takes strength?
This feels a bit like a support group!

aEx155
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by aEx155 » Tue May 27, 2008 10:38 pm

aEx155:

I'm really considering a design like the one you posted. I wonder if you can help me with providing more specs.

I'm wondering if this set up will allow for child-friendly fill-ups. I don't want my boys soaking the truck with too complex a mechanism. I think if its as simple as unsrewing a cap, putting the garden hose in a hole, and then screwing back on a cap, then my 5 year old would be in heaven.

If I have to be the one doing the refilling, that's acceptable but not ideal.

Can anyone describe (or provide a link for) the process of the fill up for the pressurized and reservoir backpack?

If I have to pressurize the tank, like in RolandTower's Ultimate Water Gun, how long will it retain the PSI? Do you need to repressurize every time you fill up? Every 5-10 tank-fulls?


In Dusty's water gun, is it simply the weight of the water and the stretch of the bladder that provide the pressure needed for the gun's output PSI to equal the garden hose input?

I have kind of a weak water pressure out of my garden hose. Can I put a nozzle of some kind on the end of my garden hose, on the end of my water gun, to increase the distance of the spray?
I can't really find any specs for bladder tanks, but anything similar would probably work; I did find diaphragm tanks, which work the same; they provide constant pressure after you fill them up. You could just make your own out of LRT and have several bladders (is that right?) in your holding chamber.

For ease of filling, it should be pretty simple. If you look at Dusty's gun, he had a female QD on the gun and a male QD with a valve connected to the hose. Just add one of those to your hose, plug in the tank connection and open to fill. Disconnect when done.

The process for filling up the pressurized backpack is on RolandTower's page. He said that it doesn't have too much pressure drop, so the pressure would last the length of the water if you use the same size reservoir.

In Dusty's gun, there is a rubber bladder inside of a pressurized tank. The tank and the rubber press on the water, forcing it out. The weight wouldn't be able to do anything.

As for your pressure problem, I believe that putting a nozzle on the end would help, but you would on;y get so far. Do you know how much pressure you have?

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SSCBen
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by SSCBen » Tue May 27, 2008 11:34 pm

Here's some more specific information about valves: http://www.sscentral.org/physics/valves.html

I plan to make a bladder tank water gun this year and from what I know bladder tanks are generally expensive. I wouldn't suggest them for that reason unless the added cost is worth the higher pressure and flow compared against latex tubing. In your case you don't require higher flows so it's not really worthwhile.
NHdad wrote:Is it possible to modify the hydra pak or power pulse to a homemade reservior somewhere on the truck, with a secure seal, that maintains enough internal pressure?
Maybe someone in this forum knows the perfect thread for this question.
These two designs are fundamentally different. The HydraPak has a non-pressurized reservoir tank and a separate pressurized tank while the Power Pulse appears to have one non-pressurized tank.

The HydraPak could be modified to use a separate reservoir tank without much of a problem, but you'll have to pump it up every few minutes. That's not ideal.

The guns themselves on the PowerPulse appear to be simply squirt pistols. You could replace the PowerPulse's tank with a larger one, but squirt pistols are rather weak.
NHdad wrote:The basic idea still stands - how hard would it be to attach a hose to a factory-made battery-operated water gun, and drop that hose into a homemade water container?
I haven't seen the inside of the Tarantula but I wouldn't imagine it would be difficult to modify. Buy one, open it up, take some pictures, post them here, experiment, etc. That's all you can do. This could work well.
NHdad wrote:6 pieces? Totaling 18 feet of tubing? Pieced together somehow? May be basic, but I didn't follow.
It'll be like this text drawing:

Code: Select all

           _   _   _   _   _   _
          |*| |*| |*| |*| |*| |*|
          |*| |*| |*| |*| |*| |*|
          |*| |*| |*| |*| |*| |*|
          |*| |*| |*| |*| |*| |*|
          |*| |*| |*| |*| |*| |*|
          |*| |*| |*| |*| |*| |*|
          |*| |*| |*| |*| |*| |*|
          |*| |*| |*| |*| |*| |*|
         _| |_| |_| |_| |_| |_| |_
hose < - _________________________ - > filler
The lines with stars represent the latex tubing, while the lines without stars represents pipe. You basically just hook up all the tubes to one length of pipe. It's really simple. Over top that will be some sort of protective case to prevent the tubes from being damaged.
NHdad wrote:Can anyone describe (or provide a link for) the process of the fill up for the pressurized and reservoir backpack?
This depends on the backpack design. For air pressure backpacks you pour water in, close off the fill cap/valve, and then pressurize with an air compressor or bike pump. For water bladder and latex tubing based pressurized backpacks, you either have to pump water in with a water pump or use a hose to pump water in. For non-pressurized backpacks there usually is a simple filling method like taking a cap off and pouring water in.
NHdad wrote:If I have to pressurize the tank, like in RolandTower's Ultimate Water Gun, how long will it retain the PSI? Do you need to repressurize every time you fill up? Every 5-10 tank-fulls?
RolandTower's water gun is a pressurized reservoir water gun. To refill it you have to either exhaust the current pressure or wait for the pressure to drop and then repressurize.

More complicated constant air pressure designs or simple separated air and water chamber designs avoid that problem somewhat by allowing another chamber to be sealed off for refilling.
NHdad wrote:I have kind of a weak water pressure out of my garden hose. Can I put a nozzle of some kind on the end of my garden hose, on the end of my water gun, to increase the distance of the spray?
aEx is right that there is only so much that can be done about this. Finding out your water pressure could help. From what I've read 60 PSI is typical water pressure. You can get a water pressure booster too if you wanted one, but I don't know anything specific about them like the price.

Different nozzle diameters give different ranges. Plotting nozzle diameter versus range gives approximately a bell curve. You can do tests to figure out which nozzle diameter works best for a certain system at a certain pressure. More about how to make water guns shoot farther is on this page: http://www.sscentral.org/physics/nozzles.html
NHdad wrote:By hose handle, do you mean the gun attachment to a garden hose? My boys would be bothered by the strength it takes to do that. At age four, he had no problem turning a firehose garden nozzel to change from spray to stream. I thought a lever might be something my 3 year old could turn - but you think that takes strength?
They might have problems turning ball valves but 1/2 inch brass ball valves that are lubricated should be fine.

Hose handles do refer to the gun attachment to a garden hose. Most I've used aren't hard to use. You can adjust the tension required to shoot on good ones from what I know. This I think would be your best bet because it includes a nozzle and a valve in one piece.

aEx155
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by aEx155 » Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

What do you mean by "firehose garden nozzel"? Like this?

Image

On the topic of ball valves: the only reason to use them would be for higher performance in a water gun. Hose handles would be a better option as they are less complex to use, and you don't have to worry about loosing as much water (fast open and close, unlike ball valves).

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Silence
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by Silence » Wed May 28, 2008 12:07 am

I'm assuming by specs you meant a parts list. There are partial lists in our homemade articles and a complete guide in the air pressure homemade water gun series of articles. Ben should be able to provide real specifics if he builds something like what you're looking for.

Height (which is all that density and weight boil down to when you're finding pressure) is pretty much insignificant in water guns. If I remember correctly, at ocean surface elevation, the pressure increases by 1 atmosphere with every 30 feet of depth. Since 1 atmosphere is about 15 PSI, that's 2 feet of height per 1 PSI. With a maximum net height of about 2 feet in each water gun, the pressure from height can't be much more than 1 PSI. So all the rest comes from the rubber being stretched or air being compressed. (For more information, see how water guns work.)

A good nozzle should help. Output/range only increase as the square root of pressure. So if your hose offers only 30 PSIg instead of 40 PSIg, which I think most hoses offer, you will have sqrt(0.75) the output. And since range already increases as approximately the square root/cube root/logarithm of velocity, the difference in range will be even less noticeable. So a smooth nozzle and large tubing (which doesn't restrict flow so much) should easily be able to counter low water pressure (due to elevation, etc.).

That said, a hose connecting the water tank to the nozzle can limit the flow because the tubing barbs, with the hose slides over, often have very small inner diameters. Similarly, hose handles (which are the guns - sorry for the miscommunication) really limit flow. But unless you find range from a hose to be insufficient, there's not much reason to worry.

Edit: I posted too soon to see the above two posts.

I didn't mention it earlier, but I can now see why a conventional hose gun might be difficult to use with small hands. They're easy to shoot if you press at the bottom of the handle, thanks to leverage, but a small hand could barely grasp it at the neck. aEx just posted an image of a device that might be more suitable, and maybe that's what you suggested.

Ben says most hoses have 60 PSI...that's not bad. You could either measure your pressure yourself using a gauge, find it by comparing elevations with a location with known water pressure, or just lowball it (at, say, 40 PSI). At any rate, the hose should be able to fill any bladder with lower pressure, so 40 PSI would be a safe guess unless the tap pressure is even lower than that.
Last edited by Silence on Wed May 28, 2008 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

NHdad
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Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by NHdad » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:32 am

With summer vacation, the hot weather, and an upcoming Powerwheel show (http://www.xpwmne.com/flyerXpwmne.pdf - here’s the registration form if anyone in the area is interested http://www.xpwmne.com/08registrationform.pdf) I'm back on this project!

I took Ben's suggestion and purchased LRT (McMaster-Carr part number 5234K53 - Super Soft Latex Rubber Tubing 3/8" ID, 3/4" OD, 3/16" Wall Thickness). I purchased 25 feet, so I should have enough for mistakes and probably multiple projects...

***Does this mean that I am working with 3/4 inch diameter tubing for the rest of my parts? Should I reduce at all internally in the piping, or stay consistently ¾ in?

***** Since this is intended for young 3-7 year olds to simulate a fire truck experience, not for water wars, I am happy maintaining a small stream of water that can go, say, 30 feet for as long as possible. The emphasis here, for me, is on a quality but small stream, that can visibly hit a tree, stop sign, or some other target, for as long as possible. For this design, then, I think the internal piping should be consistently smaller than is typically found in the homemades on this forum. Any ideas?

************************************************************************
Because it's so cool, I going to try Ben's suggestion of the parallel LRT. I get the basic design as an input end, LRT storage, and an output end, and I need some help with the details regarding each of these.

Let’s start with the LRT because, rightly or wrongly, it’s the only thing I’ve purchased so it’s what I’M starting with:

I expect to connect the LRT to the pipe with the following hose clamps: 430 SS Smooth-Band Worm-Drive Hose Clamp 1/2" to 3/4" Clamp Dia Range, 3/8" Band Width, Packs of 10 (McMaster-Carr part number 5076K13). *** Is that right for the ¾ inch LRT I’ve purchased?

I need a lot of help understanding the tubing barbs. From the LRT basics forum (http://www.sscentral.org/homemade/lrt.html), I know that I need tubing barbs with a male threaded end for each LRT tube I wish to attach. From the SuperCPS forum (http://www.sscentral.org/homemade/supercps.html) I have the visual of how to connect an LRT to a male tubing barb using a hose clamp.

I do not know what size tubing barb I need, and if it should be reducing. At McCarren-Carr I’m overwhelmed with acetal barbed tube tees and plastic barbed tube adapters of all shapes and sizes. Any proven parts? Would it be better to go to Lowes? What sizing should I stick to?

How to string the LRT tubes together in series is also a question that I have. With PVC, I understand how to cut small pieces of pipe to connect several tees together. I think that’s the way people generally go, right? And there is a tee that I can find at Lowes or McCarren-Carr that has a male barbed end?

If that’s the case, I need advice for what size PVC tubing to use if I’m using ¾ inch LRT. I gather I need to consider the PCI rating of the PVC as well – does anyone have that at their fingertips? I would probably just get something rated at or above 100PCI.

Since I'm combining the water gun with the power wheel, I'm hoping to get away with using the powerwheel as the protective chamber. ****Since it's not an APH design, am I correct that the PVC would just serve as a protective case? If so, then placing the LRT series of PCs in the back compartment of the power wheel should serve the same purpose, without adding any additional weight.

I still have to saw through a side to gain easy access, but I think I’m looking at an internal space of about 1 foot by 2 feet. That may not be enough storage space, and I may need to go external. Any thoughts on how much storage I may get out of two cubic feet of space? I can visualize about 3 gallons of Hawaiian Punch sitting in there, so I’m guessing that’s what I’ve got for internal storage. How long might that last with the system I’m working with?

Also, does anyone think it would be better to set up with fewer LRT pipes that can expand the full width, or more LRT pipes set up to expand the smaller 1 foot dimension?

If I go internal, I’m going to have to figure out some sort of bottom panel to protect the LRT from the heat (I’m guessing) and potential puncture points of the motors in the compartment. I want to add as little weight as possible. I want to seal it as best I can using something like guerilla glue *** unless someone knows of a better plastic-plastic solvent to use***. I plan to angle this bottom panel to channel any potential water leaks to a hole that I will drill away from the mechanical parts. I’ve noticed that the power wheel design specs in this regard are usually that simple – have a hole for water drainage in case it’s left out in the rain…

Weight is important. If I go external, can I use something lighter weight than PVC for my protective chamber? I’m thinking 1 gallon plastic bottles of Hawaiian punch. When I go in that direction, I think of Ben’s 2L homemade (http://www.sscentral.org/homemade/2l.html). With a similar set up, I could spray paint 10 Hawaiian punch bottles fire hydrant red, put male or female quick connects on the end rather than a nozzle, the opposite quick connect piece on the input end of the fire truck plumbing so that the firemen could go around tapping into water sources wherever they may be.

Or I could spray paint them bright yellow, place some sort of storage rack on the back of the truck, have the exact kind of external quick disconnect system in series, and have my boys replenish their truck’s water supply whenever they run low. Boy that sounds expensive. But it would actually work the best for water transport since we’re going to drive over an hour for the powerwheel event, we won’t be guaranteed access to a hose, and I could have much more water on hand if I’m not limited by the weight restrictions of the powerwheel…

Oh, and since I already have ordered LRT, I’m going to want to have it inside the Hawaiian Punch bottle if that’s any help.

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To best simulate the fire truck’s fire hose, I am looking to use a conical nozzle that was in Ben’s link to nozzle basics (http://www.sscentral.org/physics/nozzles.html) -1/2" Size, Npsh Thread, 73 GPM @ 100 PSI Plastic Quick-Flow Stream Nozzle (McCarren-Carr part number 6424T62). *** Will that fit the design? *****


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For the valve, I’ve been envisioning the lever type through the entire process, but now I’m thinking that since the fire truck has a red plastic circular valve on each side I might replicate that with an actual gate valve or globe valve (I don’t know the difference, but I’m thinking I can pick one of from Lowes for cheap because it looks like something from a garden). If I find it’s too expensive, I’ll go right back to the lever valve. But either way, what size will fit my design based on ¾ inch LRT?

Thanks for helping me be extreme.

NHdad
Xtreme Power Wheel Modders of New England
http://www.xpwmne.com/
This feels a bit like a support group!

aEx155
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:13 am

Re: Powerwheel Firetruck with WORKING HOSE?!!!

Post by aEx155 » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:39 am

I was going to quote NHdad's post but that would be too long. This is a direct response to his post, with the answers in the same order as the questions (I'll get links together when I'm done):

3/4" is the OD of the LRT; it doesn't define anything other than that. If you want, you could go with all 3/4" PVC pipe (not tubing, unless you really wanted to). It'd be a little more expensive than using 1/2" pipe, but you'd get more performance.

1/2" is typically the smallest I've read about/seen on a homemade. If you do everything really bad, you can set your max range to 30 feet, but it really is dependent on your nozzle and pressure. With your one layer of LRT, your pressure shouodd be around 20-25 PSI, so you can use that as a gauge against different nozzle sizes. I use 3/32" for my homemade (see signature) at 60 PSI and it works fine at getting ranges around 35 ft, but you can try larger or smaller. Remember, larger = less range/ more output while smaller = more range/less out put, but that's not always true.

With your hose clamp: as long as your tubing's OD is within the clamping range, you should be fine. I would think that 1/2" - 3/4" clamping range is cutting it a little close for 3/4" OD LRT, especially since it'll expand once you put it over a larger barb (more on that later), but since the LRT compresses and you have non-cutting hose clamps, you're good.

For the size of hose barbs, you should try to get as large as you can, so the barb doesn't constrict flow. Good sizes would be 1/2" and 5/8", but the larger the difference between the tubing ID and your hose barb diameter, the harder it is to get on. I would just get 5/8" since it's the most common size I've read about.

I'll try to provide a diagram when I can, but I'm trying to get this post finished first.

Most PVC is rated for more than what we'll be using for our purposes, so you don't need to worry about that as long as you have pressure rated fittings (they'll say so on the box).

Remember that LRT gets more power from length than width. The longer it can expand, the better. Also, you should try to keep it in 4" pipe, so that it doesn't over-expand. You can figure out how many tubes you can fit using 4" pipe as a measurement. You're going to need to replace the LRT when it wears down or pops, so make sure you can still do that.

The nozzle you're talking about is large, at 1 1/2", which, unless you're going for performance, is a bit overkill. I would just go with something simple, like a drilled end-cap or a smaller conical nozzle.

I'm not quite sure what a lever valve; could you elaborate?

Gate valves are what are normally used for garden hose connections; they take multiple turns to open and close, so they open to slowly for a water gun. Globe valves are another name for ball valves, and you already know about those.

It's nice to be of help to someone so dedicated. Keep coming with the feed back; it helps a lot!

Links:

Smaller conical nozzles

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