Compact APHs

Build a homemade water gun or water balloon launcher and tell us about it.
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Silence
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Compact APHs

Post by Silence » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:57 pm

Hopefully, I'll be able to build my first homemades within one week. I plan to design and build a good arsenal, so that if I have a war, it won't be extremely unbalanced--I'd crush everybody else otherwise. However, I'd like to design one of the first pistol-class APHs to be like a small commercial soaker, but with great performance--say, like the Argon.

The problem is that the small soaker appears to be completely overlooked by homemade enthusiasts. Why do we always have to aim for larger soakers, when those will be quite excessive, expensive, and clumsy? Admittedly, even a small APH can pack a much more powerful punch than most stock (that means unmodded) soakers. I'd like to devote this thread to designs for the underrepresented homemade pistols, and hopefully a moderator or administrator can sticky it for me.

Appropriately, the compact homemade I will make will be a loose imitation of a Storm pistol. It will comprise a two-stroke pump for quick pressurization as a backup, a non-tracked pump for a smaller profile when not in use (i.e. when holstered), a single and small PC for quick pressurization and small size, an onboard reservoir, and a grip/trigger layout. After you think about the criteria for a while, you'll realize that they are not that hard to meet at all. I'll have designs up soon--hopefully tomorrow, at latest.

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Post by DX » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:29 pm

The APR 500 is the closest I've come to a "homemade pistol." The smaller a homemade gets, the more difficult it gets to achieve power. That's why I've never seen homemade range above 55ft, or homemade streams faster than my modded guns.

I've been exclusively focused on small APHs for the past year or so, around CPS 1200 sized. The battle practicality is great, but power is less than modded guns and the range in the high 40s. You need larger pcs for more range, but for larger pcs, you need a larger reservoir. And before you know it, your gun has grown larger than you first expected! Backpacks can keep homemades very small, but I personally don't use them. That is, however, the best way to make a pistol sized homemade. Use a backpack, then you can have a sizable pc without taking too much space.
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Post by SSCBen » Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:31 pm

My single chamber APH is shorter than my CPS 1000, but it also only operates with a backpack so as far as I am concerned, it's not on the same level as a CPS 1000 and can not be compared directly to it.

Everything that can be done is well know, and if your goal is to make a small water gun, just change up the design a bit and there's no problem with size. Of course, if you're looking for something pistol sized, it probably won't be worth the money or effort when it comes to usability in a war.

My opinion on size: I go for a combination of what's available and what I can do. If something is going to make the gun a little longer but is more convenient, I'd take that. Size is personal and it doesn't bother me much. That's probably why I'm making an enormous backpack cannon right now. :p

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Post by Silence » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:46 pm

Well, I believe I must make some revisions to my personal criteria and clear up some confusion.

First of all, I originally intended for this thread to be entitled, "APH Pistols"--but I chose to call it "Compact APHs" because, as both of you have said, too small a weapon won't achieve acceptable performance. The size I am aiming for is approximately that of the WW Argon; and it will incorporate many Storm features, as I said above. However, a major component is of the design is actually to be the layout aspect--the internals themselves might be nearly the size of those of a standard 1-PC APH, but due to a unique layout, they can be compressed into a more portable form.

The reservoir is onboard because this is intended to be a sidearm--and because of slightly weaker performance than the other APHs I will build this week or the next, and due to its small size, it should only be used as a sidearm. It's a given that the weapon, being a homemade, can easily match the power of any other soaker its size--and there's no reason it should be competent against larger primary weapons, too. If you're into SWBFII, you could say that it is the "Precision Pistol" of soakers, or if you're into BF2, you could say that it is the assault kit's carbine.

For now, I am forgoing the requirement (well, more of a guideline) of having a ball valve that can be used as a trigger. This allows for one layout that I have in mind--and a very efficient design, if I say so myself--which, given a metal ball valve and a lever/shaft apparatus, can easily be connected to a trigger. Also, the two-tube grip should actually make holding the gun a little more ergonomic and comfortable. (If and) When I finally build this soaker, it should be a little longer--which will allow for a longer pump, better proportions, and a larger reservoir. The PC, however, will be kept the same size.
Image
I forgot to crop the image, and I'll do so if anybody find a problem with it as it is.
Last edited by Silence on Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DX
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Post by DX » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:49 pm

If you draw that with PVC, you'll soon be finding it to be larger than you originally intended. Reducers take a lot of room, and the pc and reservoir will not be square like that.

Below is my second smallest homemade. Note how much space the check valves take up, and how much space the reservoir takes up. That pc and reservoir are only 2" PVC, 3" would make your gun bigger than a medium CPS right off the bat. Your double pump will make it taller than it looks on paper as well.

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Post by Silence » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:58 pm

Yes, if anything, I'll have to worry about the extended height you'd have from my "symmetric" two-stroke pump design; and I've lost a lot of sleep over it. I understand that nothing will be as perfect as possible, and I will have to make some compromises, but I still expect a nice result. By focusing greatly on the layout of the components, I plan to create a much more efficient design than the horrible ones found in regular homemades (not that regular homemades are bad in any way).

I pointed out that this will pack a ton of punch through large internals disguised as smaller ones, so don't be surprised by a large PC. Accordingly, both the PC and the reservoir will be made using 3" PVC, though the PC will be as short as possible while allowing for a securely attached endcap and reducer. Because of the shortness and the presence of only one PC, you'll actually have a much smaller PC capacity than that of the standard APH.

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Post by Silence » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:08 am

I made my third trip to Lowes yesterday, because even after the first two trips, I didn't have the 3" PVC (temporary transportation problems had prevented being able to carry 10-foot PVC sections) or the two 3" endcaps. I thought about just slapping 2" endcaps onto the bushings (appropriate for a compact APH), which would mean I wouldn't need 10 feet of 3" PVC (strangely, I already have Schedule 40, pressure rated/full core 2" and 4" PVC). That way, though, I'd have almost no PC volume, and they don't carry plain old 3/4-to-2" reducers, which would be easier than a bushing and a coupling to add 2" PVC. Also, as discussed in "Air-powered CPS without a regulator," having 2" PVC would allow for less force--though the area factor as applied in this situation is my own thinking, and it might be wrong.

In the end, I got the two endcaps, but Lowes didn't actually have pressure rated 3" PVC! Sure, they had Schedule 40 PVC in all the standard sizes, but only the sizes up to 2" were full-core; 3" and up were cellular-core. Since I have 4" pressure rated PVC (as I stated) in my backyard, I'll see where we got that--probably at a plumbing store. I'll check out The Home Depot that just set up shop in this area, but a plumbing store would probably be a better bet. Also, I'll have to go to Lowes anyway for a few returns, because there have been some changes I've made to the standard APH design.

First off, I got rid of the elbow and set up the tee to the closest PC in such a way that the check valve leg pointed down. This makes the entire thing shorter and somewhat more space-efficient, because the length taken up by the second check valve serves as the handle. Needless to say, though, the check valve proved to be even longer than my originally liberal estimate had been--so the entire layout looks a bit weird, with the gun being even taller than it is wide. However, it is perfectly functional, and this seems to put the weight over your firing hand a bit more evenly.

Second, I used a metal ball valve instead of a PVC one, due to tips that it is easier to open. I chose the one in the tray that was the smoothest of the lot, although enough lubrication and possibly even loosening of the screw might have done the same and better for other individual metal ball valves. Strangely, the solvent/socket ended ones didn't seem to fit very well in 3/4" PVC at all, so I ended up using the female threaded (FIPT) ones anyway. In the end, I didn't need a male threaded (MIPT) coupler to connect the nozzles and the ball valve; I just replaced the FIPT endcaps with MIPT plugs, which can be screwed directly into the ball valve--and it should work perfectly. The male adapter I was going to use with the FIPT endcaps doesn't need to be returned (although the actual endcaps do need to be returned), since it is used to connect the the brass ball valve to the rest of the gun anyway.

Instead of doing the standard trashbag backpack using a Gatorade or other bottle's cap and mouth, I actually bought 2" fittings and the bushings/barbs necessary--it was supposed to be more reliable than the original, though I'm not sure anymore. (Though I do know it cost a lot more :p !) The problem is that there are way too many threads on the female and male 2" adapter and/or the PVC threads are far sharper than those of cheap bottles and/or the trashbag I used was too weak. When I unscrewed the trashbag that had been clamped between the 2" PVC threaded adapters, I noticed that it had been sliced/ripped a bit; the seal would probably have held, but it's something I'll look into.

Well, that's basically a description of my first homemade--I probably won't create a new thread for it, but I might if I have too; also, I can link to other posts regarding it if others want the links. It doesn't have any "revolutionary" features such as a two-stroke pump or a PreCharger system, but I will certainly build more after I get this working. Stats will be up as soon as I can get them.

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Post by SSCBen » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:12 am

Sounds good. Do you have any pictures? I'd like to see it.

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Post by Silence » Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:49 am

Well, it's drying right now and it should be done in the morning...looks like I'll have time to test it in the morning since marching band is delayed tomorrow until 10:30.

Alright, I know I should have kept updates on the soaker's status all in this thread, but I didn't--there were references scattered in other threads and even on other sites' forums, but that doesn't leave much for people viewing this thread in the future and who don't have the patience to track down those posts.

Thus, I will do the best I can to sum everything up. I'll probably also use this thread to jolt my memory if I do decide to write an article on the soaker.

As I said, there were several trips to Lowes required as I hadn't completely thought everything through--forgiveable for a first homemade. These involved exchanging the original hose barbs I had gotten because they were too heavy and expensive, and the spinning feature leaked and wasn't needed; getting O-rings and looking for pump rods; getting 1/2" PVC; and probably a ton of other things.

I had a bit of confusion involving diameters for the pump parts. My plan was to use a 1/2" pump in 1/2" PVC--easily possible since Schedule 40 PVC has a slightly greater ID than its name. I chose two different sizes of O-rings and got them in case one of them wasn't the right size: they were #8 and #9. I had a 12" by 1/2" steel rod lying around the house, but it was too heavy and I decided it was also too long for such a short gun, so one of the trips to Lowes involved looking for a 1/2" aluminum rod. The largest they had was 3/8", so my dad got some 1/2" from work.

I then experimented with the O-rings, using the smaller #8 because the #9 couldn't fit on at all. After a long time of trying to get the O-ring to compress and go inside the tubing, I used a bit of Vaseline and I think it worked with a plopping noise. However, I don't know since the O-ring might have been hidden next to the electrical tape I had already layered, and I pulled out the rod too soon and the O-ring fell back out. It wasn't next to the tape, though, so I think it did work.

After that, it proved impossible to make the large O-rings function at all. I think that's because after the O-ring slid inside the pump tube, it slid over Vaseline that had gotten onto the rod, and because the rod then became lubricated, no O-ring had the friction to stay in place. Perhaps after a layer of Teflon tape or a millenium of wiping off the oil...

I then adjusted the layering height of the electrical tape in an attempt to hold it in place the way it would be while using the soaker. But I hadn't allowed for a concave curve in the side of the tape "block," so the O-ring eventually dug in between a couple of layers and that was that. Because two of the layers had been separated and the adhesive on the tape had been spoiled, the electrical tape was completely messed up. Even when I lowered the level a bit, the separation was a pain in the neck.

So once again I went through the time-consuming (and for a perfectionist, it was also torturous) process of layering the tape again. This time, I wasn't overzealous in the layering and didn't use too much, and the O-ring was held in place instead of dug into the tape. But the problem of the excessive size was still there, so I had to restart again.

But this time I got it all right. I decided to check out the box of random and possibly used O-rings we had, and surprisingly, a tiny one fit onto the rod very well indeed. Why hadn't I expected or tried that? Because it was fairly difficult getting #8 O-rings on the rod for the first time, so I didn't expect a tiny one--perhaps #5 or something--to be able to slip on easily. However, with reduced size comes reduced thickness, and it gave virtually no resistance as I forced it on.

I tested it after the terrible process of layering the tape once again, and this time the taping was perfect--the height was good and the curvature prevented any possible movement or layer separation. After putting on Vaseline, the O-ring slid in so effortlessly I thought it hadn't even kept a seal; and while I think it did, it might not be tight enough, and only a complete test tomorrow will see. I haven't even checked it by filling a tube with water! Okay, so you've probably had enough of hearing about my troubles with the pump.

As I said above, I thought making a backpack trashbag fitting system out of PVC itself was more durable and a better deal all round, but I was certainly wrong. All it does is add weight, add bulkiness, add expense, and rip the bag if you tighten it too much because of the sharp threads. For all these reasons, I really don't recommend buying the extra PVC for this. I would do exactly what it says to do in the trashbag backpack mod article, but remember to use a drop of epoxy to prevent leaking.

So all I can do is wait and hope everything turns out well enough. The gun will be awkward to hold (it's 10" long and 1.5-2 feet tall--if you hold it too low on the huge check valve handle, then the weight is too far above and it will buck a lot; if you hold it too high, then pumping will make it spin), but at least it will be short. For the future, I plan to meet those deadlines when I say I will finish projects--if not by becoming more efficient, then by not projecting (no pun intended) such ambitious dates for completion. Minor technical changes include avoiding such awkward layouts and the use of a 1/2" barrel if I'm only using a 1/2" pump--I'm not too ambitious with my riot blasts.

And more importantly, I plan a complete departure from traditional APHs in favor of practical PCgHs and CPHs. One can build an extremely powerful weapon in the form of a PCgH, but unlike what I had originally intended, it doesn't need to be nearly so complex. A combination of the bag PC (later proposed by kanigetts) and a Schrader valve (as used in joannaardway's SPCgH) can power an incredibly simple yet effective design.

Imagine a 1-PC standard APH: then take the second check valve and put it where the handle is like on my compact APH, then take the PC and turn it upside-down. The long handle--the check valve--will be the entire height of the soaker, and the lone PC gets to be the same length--which is pretty big, perhaps reaching the volume of two shorter PCs. (Of course, the SA and power will be reduced. But this is countered by the PreCharging.) A couple of durable, layered bags with small diameters for less wrinkling will be inside the PC to keep the water on top and to allow a Schrader valve beneath to pump air in seperately.

The pump would be duct-taped to the bottom of the PC, making the entire soaker very well designed. The length increase from the first check valve won't be noticeable since it's underneath your forearm, or it can go up alongside the second check valve to a reservoir on top.

Thus, you'll have a compact PCgH that can double as a low-powered separate-chamber water cannon. You could have multiple PCs if you connected the air parts with tubing (not necessary, but recommended) and an enormous barrel to give it more powerful, but as it is, there's quite a bit of potential.

Perhaps this post wasn't supposed to be so rambling, but it just allowed me to get out a ton of opinions and thoughts. Any questions? Comments? I might be able to get pictures of the compact APH up, but it won't be that impressive.

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Post by DX » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:41 am

What you can do with an O-ring that's too big is to carefully saw a shallow slit into the pump that the O-ring can rest on. Combined with the tape, this ensures that the O-ring will remain where you want it indefinately. This is faster and easier with a wooden dowel, although you can do it with aluminum rods if you don't use wood.

Other than that, a picture says a thousand words. Can't wait to see some pics of your new gun! :cool:
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Post by Silence » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:45 pm

I tested it earlier today, and it took a while to get a few minor problems sorted out. The pump O-ring is a bit too small, and I tested it after I couldn't really get the backpack to work. The plunger didn't completely seal the water when I poured some into the remaining stick of 1/2" PVC, and if it can't hold pressure, then it's not going to be able to suck water out of the backpack. I know the backpack is fine, though, because without the soaker the hose lets water go through.

After band today, I'm going to put some tape underneath the O-ring to get its diameter to be a little bigger. The problem is that I'll have to redo all the tape to access the actual rod!

The next option would be to go to Lowes and get a different sized O-ring. Our family's collection only has the small one I used and ones that are at least as large as the #8/#9 that I bought, so I'm looking for something in between.

And if that doesn't work, I'll have to get my dad to use the lathe as Duxburian said. I don't really want to since it's a nice (but small) rod, but if worst comes to worst, then I'll cut a groove. In the future, I'll probably use a wooden dowel, but I'd probably use the lathe anyway for a smoother groove.

Thanks for the suggestions, and I hope I get this up and running sometime today. I'll try to get a camera to use, but if I can't, you'll probably see it in a few years--either at a Regional War or from a new camera. ;)

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Post by Silence » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:13 pm

Didn't find the time to post this yesterday...

Anyway, the soaker was up and running yesterday. I pumped it up quite a bit (with only a 5 inch pump, it takes many strokes to pressurize properly) and shot out of the only nozzle so far; it's terrible nozzle, being tiny and drilled from the outside. Also, when my dad did it, he was using a weak drill so it took a while--during which the hole was made to taper out a little.

The stream is terrible, but it still shot farther than my CPS 4100 (which I think is a dud)--perhaps 40 feet, maybe more. Later, I got a bit less, perhaps 35 or so feet. Range tests will be done in due time.

However, water kept on leaking from the pump, and at a certain point the pressure was too high or something and nothing much came through the hose. I went in and redid the pump several times, but nothing happened. I was reluctant to add more tape underneath the O-ring after remembering the day before, but I did that anyway. After making the tape on the sides higher and higher, it eventually got to be pretty good.

The pump now doesn't leak, which is good. Besides that first 40/45 foot shot and a decent riot blast both with the bad pump, I only got a good shot one other time. That was an even bigger riot blast with the good pump, perhaps reaching 25 feet--which is okay for now. As I said though, in the future I won't bother to use 3/4" pipe for the barrel. It's almost as if there isn't enough water to fill the barrel for a riot blast.

Meanwhile, though, I've been having some problems with the backpack. I've decided that the problem is our trashbags are way too big, and it overlaps too much when I screw on the attachment--and I don't want to have to use Teflon tape. My mom is getting me a pack of smaller ones, though.

Also, I never really filled the bags too much as I hadn't gotten out a backpack yet. Also, the first bag got a leak and the second got slightly cut on the threads, although I worked around that problem. Fortunately, a smaller bag will help prevent leaking. Since the backpack was filled so low, I spent a lot of time getting the air out of them after I filled each time--which is why the soaker rarely generated pressure.

The new pump is good, but whenever I stick it in the O-ring comes off in places but gets pulled back. I'm just hoping it won't fall off completely inside, especially at higher pressures. After pumping a while, it's weird--it doesn't really pump, and water doesn't leave the backpack. I think the O-ring got detached and is sliding along the rod. I'll try adding one more layer of electrical tape on the side and hope that doesn't get peeled off--right now, some got peeled as I was putting the pump in.

Fortunately, there's some success with the pump handle. I have a really sweet pump rod (a bit on the short side, though that suits a short gun well); it's been machined so that for most of its length, its cross-section is a rectangle. There were two screw holes cut into the rectangular part.

I took a wooden dowel and cut it to size. I drilled a hole for the rod to go into, but it took a while since it was a 1/2" rod and a 3/8" drill bit. I drilled a hole for the appropriate bolt, which now holds the rod firmly in place. And finally, I cut the long bolt short, to cut the long story short. I also cut the aluminum rod short, as the drill bit wasn't long enough for the aluminum to go in far enough for the screw hole to be inside. (One of the reasons for this handle was that the washer was on the wrong side of the tee, and the joint was displacing the O-ring and messing up the seal.)

Anyway, with a smaller trashbag for a better seal, bigger and cleaner nozzles, and a slightly better pump, this soaker should be even more of a beast. At least the PVC joint seals have held up fairly well, and I'll be hoping for the best. A picture should be up soon.

Unfortunately, yesterday was tainted a bit. I took out my CPS 4100 to show my dad that I needed a bigger nozzle orifice, and the trigger was even more stubborn than the day before: I had to hold the handle with both hands and pull on the trigger with two fingers, all the way back, and with great difficulty. I had even resolved to reinforce the trigger! At any rate, the trigger snapped before even shooting. There were still a few pumps' worth of water in the PC, so I knew I had to fix this as soon as possible--thank goodness for becoming fluent with such matters from being here at SSC. I took it in quickly, and after dinner, I opened it up in less than fifteen minutes.

Two days before that, I had put the gun (disassembled except for the pump cap I didn't want to saw off) together; the day after, there were trigger problems and I resolved to reinforce it; and then it broke. Looking at it from the inside and comparing it to the internals of other soakers, that is a terrible mistake; there's practically no plastic holding the pieces together! At any rate, the metal saw ripped through the pump cap, and in a short while I was fan blasting the water into the sink. I'll finish the repair today, although it'll be hard. Also, the pump's track pin broke (probably not in the process of opening, though), but I have sufficient knowledge to fix that; I'll use epoxy and metal, similar to the trigger repair. I might do an article on that.

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Post by joannaardway » Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:21 pm

"5 inch pump"?!? .5 perhaps?

Sorry to hear about your 4100 failure.
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Post by Silence » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:30 pm

joannaardway wrote:"5 inch pump"? .5 perhaps?

Sorry to hear about your 4100 failure.
No, I meant 5 inches...as opposed to a longer pump of perhaps 10 inches. You might be thinking of the pump diameter--it was 1/2" PVC but Schedule 40, so the ID was a bit larger.

I'm sure I'll get the CPS 4100 fixed--it's just that I didn't really expect it to happen then, although you never do. What really stung was that I could have reinforced it before (a better solution, and one that I wish I had done), but then again, there was no need to cut off the red pump cap before either.

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Post by Silence » Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:01 pm

Well, I finally got the time to finish up the minor things such as the nozzles, pump, and backpack.

Backpack: Indeed, my mom got me some small trashbags for the backpack, and they work very well. They are 4 gallons/15 liters in size, although if you don't keep them in a sphere shape while filling, then it's probably a bit less. While it doesn't look like much when filled to the top, it's plenty; and it weighs quite a bit. I've just left the backpack outside and haven't moved, but now that I'm done testing, I'll have to check the weight in a backpack.

Most importantly, the seal is perfect now, and so is the size--although a taller one would better fit the old backpack I found, which is perfect for a soaker backpack.

Pump: I actually don't know if there was a major problem to begin with, but a bit of the pump tape had peeled off--probably because I pulled the pump so far out by accident that the tape scraped the opening of the pump tube. Anyway, I replaced the pump because nothing had been coming through the hose. The real culprit? A trashbag that had spun and twisted its neck to a close while screwing in the pieces. But the pump works fine now, at least up to pressures where I can't pump any more.

Sometimes, when I pull the pump out to a certain point at high pressures, a tiny, turbulent "jet" of water leaks out from inside. I'm assuming this is from a scratch in the inside of the pump tube from sometime while making the gun, although I could of course be wrong. It's a very minor problem, really.

Nozzles: I've finally gotten rid of that dratted tiny nozzle with poor turbulence! The new nozzles have strong output with incredible range.

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