Trigger Spings

Repairs to water guns. Please put repair topics in this forum so that people do not have to sort through so many topics when looking for a repair. If a fix is included in the topic, please add (Fixed) before the topic title to indicate so.
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MarsGlorious
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Trigger Spings

Post by MarsGlorious » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:23 am

This is really annoying. What stupid design. I have quite a collection of hasbro soakers and all of them are breaking with the same problem. The trigger spring. I know the basic way of fixing it but they're breaking faster then I can repair them. I generally use rubber bands in the place of extension springs but this doesn't appear to work for very long.

I was hoping to find a spring stocker so I can get extension spring to replace the broken ones. Any Advice?

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SSCBen
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by SSCBen » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:09 am

Check hardware and home improvement stores. There might be some websites that would be good for you to check too, but I don't know any that ship to Australia. McMaster-Carr ships international from what I have heard. Measure size and estimate the force constant to make your selection. ;)

Check out this page for a different way to use rubber bands too: http://forums.sscentral.org/t2730/

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MarsGlorious
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by MarsGlorious » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:16 am

You answers this thread in under an hour. That's pretty incredible Ben. Thanks for the help. Oh and I just answered your reply to my email.
Last edited by MarsGlorious on Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

sbell25
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by sbell25 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:47 pm

I'm thinking about ordering some springs for my Flash Flood from McMaster as I tried rubber bands but they didn't work too well for me. If I do order from McMaster, I'll get some of the ultra-precision ones as the site says they're good for 'heavy-cycle jobs'. Hopefully they'll last longer than the stock springs do.

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MarsGlorious
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by MarsGlorious » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:33 am

Yes I've tried rubber bands as well. They don't work. They aren't strong enough and don't anywhere near as long. Considering a gun thats as hard to open as the flash flood, it would be better to find a spring that don't break so often. The problem is what to size to get.

This company you referred to sounds good. I'll check it.

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Silence
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by Silence » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:03 am

Don't get ultra-precision springs. They're just ones that have been finely manufactured/calibrated so that they exert forces very similar to the ones you might predict from calculations. We're not doing fancy engineering or measurements here; a rough estimate of the forces is enough. Just buy the regular springs. :cool:

sbell25
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by sbell25 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:17 am

The only reason I wanted to get the precision ones was because I thought they would last longer. At least that's what the description said. If they only last as long as the regular ones, then I'll just get the regular ones instead.

sbell25
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by sbell25 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:57 am

I've been looking into this some more. I did a bit of a test where I attached a milk bottle to the broken spring from my Flash Flood, and filled the bottle until the spring extended 1 inch. I wasn't very exact about it but I figured that it takes around 6 pounds of force to extend the spring 1 inch. Does that sound right? When it was working, the gun's spring was weaker than I would have liked so I'll go for something a little stronger than that.

I've narrowed down my selection, but I still have a couple of questions:

- Will it be better to get regular steel or stainless steel springs?
- Should I bother with ultra-precision springs or not? The only reasons I ask is because they are apparently good for 'heavy cycle jobs'.

Prices isn't really an issue here, mainly because the springs come in packs of multiple springs, and the packs are all around the same price. The difference is that the lower quality springs have more per pack.

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SSCBen
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by SSCBen » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:09 am

6 pounds to extend an inch sounds reasonable. I mean, it doesn't sound too high or far too low, so it should be about what you want.

You should go with stainless steel because it is rust resistant. Normal steel with rust and become useless.

As for the precision springs, I don't know much about them, but if McMaster-Carr says they're good for heavy cycles, they're good for heavy cycles.

If you do find a good solution, post the part numbers. I'd be interested in repairing my Arctic Blast before something like this happens.

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Silence
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by Silence » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:44 am

6 pounds per inch actually sounds rather excessive. 6 pounds is equivalent to about 3 kilos and is perhaps the weight of a very thick book. Also remember you may be pre-compressing the spring - otherwise, it'll have pretty much no force as the trigger reaches its sitting position, so the valve may never quite close completely. I'd aim for about 1-3 pounds per inch and then precompress the spring by about 1/2" to 1".

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SSCBen
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by SSCBen » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:50 am

Yeah, now that I think about it, 6 pounds does sound excessive. I was thinking more about "Can I move that with my finger?" than what it actually represents. It probably would be a good idea to go for the figures SilentGuy said.

sbell25
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by sbell25 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:32 am

SilentGuy: I'm not sure what you mean. Did you mean pre-extended? Like having the spring always partially stretched so that there is always a force to close the valve? Looking at the Flash Flood's riot blast trigger, it's spring is pre-extended by only about 2mm. I would think that having it stretched too far would put too much stress on the points where the spring attaches, like what has happened to my Tiger Shark.

As for the force required to open the trigger, what you said has thrown me right off. I've sent an email to Big Bee, asking him how many pounds/inch their trigger springs normally are. You could very well be right, I just need to be sure before I order it.

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Silence
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by Silence » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:41 pm

Yep, I mean pre-extended. I guess it depends on the water gun and whether or not it stretches or compresses the spring to return the trigger and valve. For example, my CPS 4100 uses a compression spring rather than an extension spring.

Thanks for the info about how much springs are usually stretched before hand. 2mm is nothing, but I guess it works. I agree the Tiger Shark (based on what I've seen in my Orca) stretches the spring a lot - it took some effort to take the spring off its mount.

Maybe you made a mistake in conversion to kilograms, conversion to inch, or in estimation. Whatever. Without a force meter, it really is difficult to guess how much force a spring exerts. So thanks for emailing Big Bee!

sbell25
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by sbell25 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:01 am

SilentGuy: I measured the force of the spring again. To properly explain my method: I basically tied some string through the ring on the end of the spring, and then tied it to the handle of a milk bottle. I held the other end of the spring with a pair of pliers, and placed both the pliers and a ruler next to each other on the side of a bench. Here's a small pic of the spring at rest to show you what I mean:

Image

It's not easily visible in the picture, but the 6 inch mark is right next to the top of the bench. So the spring is about 1 inch long. The milk bottle was weighed at 2.5kg, and the spring stretched to just past the 8 inch mark (including the ring). So from that, I get approximately 5 pounds/inch.

As for pre-stretching the spring, I'm not sure that's even necessary except as a precaution against having a spring that isn't quite the right size. The 4 springs that I had narrowed down to have an initial tension of around .5 to 1 pound. I take it that is equivalent to the minimum force required to open the spring?

I'm also not sure whether I'll actually get a reply from Big Bee, as he's probably very busy with the 2008 line coming out soon. We'll see.

Edit: Removed part number of spring, as I hadn't factored in deflection. So I'll need to start my search again.

Edit 2: Question: is 'deflection at load' the maximum length that the spring can extend?
Last edited by sbell25 on Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SSCBen
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Re: Trigger Spings

Post by SSCBen » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:16 pm

I don't know anything about initial tension, but what you said makes sense. Emailing McMaster-Carr can help with things like that, so fire them an email. Sometimes they can give information not on the page as well. I remember getting weight for something that they didn't report weight for before.

Big Bee sometimes replies right away, other times never. He seems to miss some emails from time to time, but I know he makes an effort to at least read your emails. Coincidentally, I just got a reply from him to an email I sent months ago that he admitted to completely missing! I suppose he gets a lot of emails and some get missed.

As for deflection at load, I don't know if that is the maximum deflection. I always thought it was just a randomly chosen point, but I guess it would make sense to mean maximum deflection. This might be another question where McMaster-Carr would be helpful.

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