Battle Swords Description

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The dark ANNIHILATOR
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Post by The dark ANNIHILATOR » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:49 am

Since Im going to write some sword reviews soon, I might aswell do a short description of swords. Im not an expert, but I did some research which can be taken as basics of what swords are about.

Steel:

There are different kinds of steel. For now I will only talk about stainless steel and carbon steel. Stainless steel(440c,420c) is used for swords you see in your local knife and swords store. They are purly for decorational purposes(exept 440V). The metal is to heavy and to brittle. The blade would simply break uppon hard impact.(exept 440V)
The steel that is used for actual battle swords is carbon steel. It is lighter and thougher than stainless steel. But it also rusts quickly and get stains. There are different kinds of carbon steel:

440- Very soft carbon steel. Very similar to stainless steel, but not that brittle. Since its relatively soft, it does not hold its edge very well. At first I thought someone mistyped and meant 440 stainless steel, but according to some websites, it exists.

1050- Fairly standard and fairly good metal. That is the standard of most battle swords. Especially the european models.
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalo....014.JPG

1060- Has more carbon than 1050, making it a bit tougher and last long in holding a sharp edge.
http://www.darksword-armory.com/images/1339_blade.jpg

1070- Has more carbon than 1060, making it a bit tougher and last long in holding a sharp edge.
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/SH2073.jpg

1086- Has more carbon than 1070, making it a bit tougher and last long in holding a sharp edge.
http://img11.exs.cx/img11/2042/1086steel1.jpg


1090- Has more carbon than 1086, making it a bit tougher and last long in holding a sharp edge. Takes a lot of forging skill to work with, since if its done wrong, it would get brittle.
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/ll300a.jpg

5160- Has more carbon and chromium than any other carbon steel, making it extremely durable, and mildly stain resistant.
http://www.barbarianblades.com/images/at2.jpg

Folded Carbon steel:
Folded steel is mainly used on Katana swords. Diffent layering will make the blade more shock absorbent and durable. Also, harder steel is folded around softer steel for better shock absorbance.

Traditional folding: 150 to 200 layers. This has been used in most traditional Katanas.

Contemorary folding:
100-150- Since the carbon steel used today is better than the carbon steal of the middle ages, not that many layers are required to get the same traditional results.

4096 Layered dual steel - New folding technique. It has 4 times the layering of most folded katanas. extremely durable and shock resistant.
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/ll306a.jpg

8192 Layered dual steel - Not the BEST blade on the planet, but ONE of the best blades of the planet. This new folding technique has 8 times the layers of most folded katanas. This is state of the art in schock resistance and durability.
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/bear01.jpg
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/bear04.jpg

900 layers – Seems to be the highest layers of conventional folding technique.
http://img53.exs.cx/img53/8704/900layers.jpg


Damascus steel:
A different technique of layering. More random pattern than folded katanas, but still very though and shock resistant. Traditional Damascus used to have additional element with the steel to give it its stunning colour, while modern Damascus basically just uses pure steel.
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/ah-3384.jpg


Heat Treatment:
European swords are usually forged around a rockwell hardness of around 40-60(Heat measurment). So some blades are tempered around 50 and some around 55.
The less expensive functional katana swords are tempered like european swords, while the expensive Katana swords are differentialy tempered. 40 at the back, and 60 at the front. Thats makes the sword more shock absorbant since its soft at the back, but it has a durable sharp edge since it hard in the front.

Purposes of carbon blades:
There are basicaly 2 purposes of carbon blades which are cutting exercises and combat re-enactment. For cutting exercises the blade should be sharp of course, while for battle re-enactments the blade has to be un-sharpened. Its illegal to battle with sharp swords. This is one thing to keep in mind when buying a blade.

Full Tang and rat-Tail Tang:
Full tang is when the handle and blade are 1 piece. Rat Tail tang is when the blade is screwed to the blade. The good construction is full tang


Cheapest Carbon Sword:
$9.99 US Carbon sword on ebay. It is the cheapest carbon sword, but still better constructed than the $200 stainless steel swords in your local knife stores.
http://img49.exs.cx/img49/9325/KATA02.jpg


Best carbon Sword:
The L62 sword’s blade alone costs $2000-$3000. According to retailers, this sword has the best blade on the planet. At least the best blade you can buy. Its made by the same manufacturer that produces the 900 layer blades. If you want the best sword on the planet that money can buy, this is it.[edit]:Best sword as in craftmenship and blade sufistication.
http://img53.exs.cx/img53/5091/L62.jpg
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Razor
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Post by Razor » Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:36 pm

Best carbon sword? There are many different types of swords out there I.e. Wakizachis (sp?) katanas, dai-katanas, claymores, long swords, broad swords, short swords, sabers, etc...

What makes you think that that katana is the best sword? Like soakers, different swords have different roles.
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Post by ChaosKnight » Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:42 pm

katanas can be used very quickly and efficiently. medieval swords were heavy and you had to swing them in wide, slow arcs.
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Razor
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Post by Razor » Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:47 pm

Katanas are medieval. They were just made in a different region on the globe.

And Euro-Medieval blades are not slow to wield. A medieval broadsword weighs on avrage 3 lbs.
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Post by Commander_Gaunt » Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:20 pm

3 lbs?!! Your not serious, are you? We have some in our history department at school that have been with the school for about 400-500 years (very very old school (english)) that were donated by some duke, and they weigh a Hasbro HQ of a lot more, they are massive! how could they possibly weigh only 3lbs?
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The dark ANNIHILATOR
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Post by The dark ANNIHILATOR » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:13 pm

Best carbon sword? There are many different types of swords out there I.e. Wakizachis (sp?) katanas, dai-katanas, claymores, long swords, broad swords, short swords, sabers, etc...

What makes you think that that katana is the best sword? Like soakers, different swords have different roles.
Originally posted by Razor@Aug 18 2004, 01:47 PM
Katanas are medieval. They were just made in a different region on the globe.

And Euro-Medieval blades are not slow to wield. A medieval broadsword weighs on avrage 3 lbs.
First I have to say that I really like european swords. Most european 1 handed swords are even just 2 lbs. The 2 handed ones are 3 lbs. I got a medieval combat sword that was build after an authentic historical piece. I will talk more about it in my upcoming reviews. Katanas, which are more elaboratly made than Wazikis and Dantos, usally weigh 2-3 pounds. So equal to the european swords.

Many swords have different roles, but their steel gives away how they are crafted and with what quality. The reason why I said that the Katana above is stated as "best sword", is because of its craftmen ship and work hours. European swords are usually made of 1050 steel. The very good ones 1060 or 5160. That is very good steel, but not as well crafted as the katanas, since its only a 1 piece tempred blade. The katanas had to be crafted better, since the blades are only half as whide as most european swords. So the crafting method had to be more sufisticated than the european swords. Diffentialy tempered is a must for a katana, so its shock absorbant. Also soft steel folded in hard steel was also relevant, since the Katana blade had to be flexible inside, but though outside to hold its edge.

So yeah, when I talk about "best blade" I talk about craftmenship. Its like a Firari or Ryce Royce among swords. And that is just the blade, not even including the $1000-$2000 fittings like hand guard and handle

As european swords go, the thing that comes very close in craftmenship that to folded katanas is Damascus. So if you want the best European sword, it should be damascus steel. The darker blueish damscus steel is a bit better than the lighter greyish damascus steel.
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Post by King Soaker » Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:00 am

I'll have to agree with Commander Gaunt, I own a Bagua Two Handed Chinese Saber which is fairly light at 3lbs, a broad sword made in Pakistan that weighs 4 1/2 lbs, a 5lb Viking sword, and a 7 1/2lb Claymore.

Here is a guy who has a 13.1lb sword in his collection!

http://www.palus.demon.co.uk/Sword_Stats.html

Contrary to DA's report, stainless steel is nearly unbreakable. One reasons that many guns, and top quality knives are made from stainless is due to the fact that it is far more durable than most carbon steel, and also more expensive. it resists corrosion, and erosion extremely well, and does not become brittle. The reason virtually all battle swords were made from carbon steel is due to the fact that stainless steel had not been invented yet!

Stainless steel was invented by Harry Brearley on the 13th August 1913.

http://www.worldstainless.org/what_basic.php

http://cutlerscove.com/kwg/knife-steel.htm

You will note that nearly all of police, military, special forces, and cutlery knife manufacturers use stainless in their knives. Spyderco, Al Mar, Buck, Swiss Army, and just about every other major brand uses stainless because it outlasts ferrous carbon steel. As for keeping an edge, I remember a special forces video showing a Green Beret build a log cabin with an Al Mar Pathfinder. I own one of these magnificent knives which are styled after the Khukuri Khukri, or "Gurka" knife.

I also own a modest collection of a dozen Japanese Katana swords. An excellent resource can be found here: http://members.cox.net/jkk/jpnzswd.htm

I have been collecting knives, switch blades, swords, martial arts weapons, and guns for many years, and belong to the Automatic Knife Association (AKA), National Knife Collectors Association, Midwest Gun Collectors, Assn., NRA, and local gun club.
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Post by The dark ANNIHILATOR » Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:29 am

Originally posted by King Soaker@Aug 18 2004, 07:00 PM
I'll have to agree with Commander Gaunt, I own a Bagua Two Handed Chinese Saber which is fairly light at 3lbs, a broad sword made in Pakistan that weighs 4 1/2 lbs, a 5lb Viking sword, and a 7 1/2lb Claymore.

Here is a guy who has a 13.1lb sword in his collection!

http://www.palus.demon.co.uk/Sword_Stats.html

Contrary to DA's report, stainless steel is nearly unbreakable. One reasons that many guns, and top quality knives are made from stainless is due to the fact that it is far more durable than most carbon steel, and also more expensive. it resists corrosion, and erosion extremely well, and does not become brittle. The reason virtually all battle swords were made from carbon steel is due to the fact that stainless steel had not been invented yet!

Stainless steel was invented by Harry Brearley on the 13th August 1913.

http://www.worldstainless.org/what_basic.php

http://cutlerscove.com/kwg/knife-steel.htm

You will note that nearly all of police, military, special forces, and cutlery knife manufacturers use stainless in their knives. Spyderco, Al Mar, Buck, Swiss Army, and just about every other major brand uses stainless because it outlasts ferrous carbon steel. As for keeping an edge, I remember a special forces video showing a Green Beret build a log cabin with an Al Mar Pathfinder. I own one of these magnificent knives which are styled after the Khukuri Khukri, or "Gurka" knife.

I also own a modest collection of a dozen Japanese Katana swords. An excellent resource can be found here: http://members.cox.net/jkk/jpnzswd.htm

I have been collecting knives, switch blades, swords, martial arts weapons, and guns for many years, and belong to the Automatic Knife Association (AKA), National Knife Collectors Association, Midwest Gun Collectors, Assn., NRA, and local gun club.
Like I said carbon steel is lighter than stainless steel. Your boad sword and claymore are probbaly made of stainless steel and are wall hangers. Especially since they are made in Pakistan.

Belive it or not, stainless steel is brittle. Not shock absorbant whatsoever. Don't you think they would make re-inactment or functional swords out of stainles steel if it really would be good to use. Email sword smiths and they will tell you what steel is for battle. I never saw a "functional or lifesteel sword" made of stainless steel. Everyone who tries to sell stainless steel as "battle swords" try to rip off costumers.

Go to every "battle sword" website and every sword is made of carbon steel. You can't compare knifes or guns to swords. Guns and knifes don't clash in battle. Their danger is stains and erosion, which explains why they are stainless steel. A knife or a gun is not a sword. I don't have to point out that all three have diffent aplications.
I don't know where you got your information from, but they are extemly flawed.
No one, and I mean seriously no one who intends to use swords for life steel combat will use stainless steel. It would not even be scientificaly possible to fight practicaly swith a sword made of stainless steel. Especially against a lighter and more shock absorbant carbon blade of equal size. Even physics would suggest not to use a sword made of stainless steel.

Still don't belive me. Every truly functional sword is made of carbon steel, while every wall hanger is made of stainless steel.
Battle sword stores:
http://www.ageofchivalry.com/
http://www.barbarianblades.com/
http://www.bladeseller.com/Valiant/
http://www.by-the-sword.com/new/catalog.htm
http://www.casiberia.com/cas_website/main.asp
http://www.coldsteel.com/
http://www.darksword-armory.com/
http://www.knightsedge.com/
http://www.lords-armory.com/index.html
http://www.medieval-weaponry.com/index. ... lang=en-us
http://www.mwart.com/xq/ASP.store/cat.4 ... Swords.htm
http://www.kriscutlery.com/
http://www.northlandgifts.com/cgi-bin/n ... 54085.html
http://www.mantisswords.com/
http://www.imperialweapons.com/swords.html
http://www.whiteherondojo.net/sales/tsuba.html

All of these retailers sell swords meant for life steel combat, or at least to have life steel quality. Those swords are ALL carbon steel. No manufacturer in the right mind would sell stainless steel swords for combat, unless they want to go out of buisness. Im not trying to blindly defend my stance or spread carbon steel propaganda, but all these sites show actual proof and actual evidence of what steel to use in sword combat. If someone still disagrees, they have to give evidence of credible battle sword manufacturers who actually produce stainless steel for combat.
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Post by Razor » Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:17 am

Stainless steel also loses it's edge much faster than carbon steel.
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Post by King Soaker » Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:35 am

DA,

These "authentic" swords are made from old fashioned ferrous steel so they look like the real thing. Only a fool would believe ancient carbon steel is stronger than modern stainless, or super modern HR 5160 spring steel which is a close cousin of stainless due to it's chromium content. This is the metal used in most modern high quality Katana type swords.

Here is a reference chart:

http://www.admiralsteel.com/products/blades.html

By the way, my Claymore was not made in Pakistan, nor is it made of stainless. But, my cheap 440C stainless broad sword made in Pakistan would do serious damage to any old fashioned ferrous Claymore sword.

Try bending a high carbon hardened ferrous blade a few degrees and see what happens. About the only exception to this rule is Damascus steel. Ever wonder why the hardest drill bits are the easiest to snap?

Razor wrote:
Stainless steel also loses it's edge much faster than carbon steel.
"While it is true that a plain carbon steel knife will take an edge very quickly, it is equally true that a plain carbon steel knife will lose that edge faster than a comparable stainless steel knife. Don't let the folklore fool you: today's high-carbon stainless steel knives really are better than the old-fashioned carbon steel knives, and modern sharpening technologies make them easy to sharpen, too."

http://www.chesapeakeknifeandtool.com/c ... ?E+scstore

This fact is supported by virtually all modern knife makers, and the old-wives-tale that carbon steel holds a better edge was debunked long ago. This is the 21st Century, and quite honestly there is a modern alloy superior to old carbon steel for virtually every, and any application you can name.
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Post by The dark ANNIHILATOR » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:23 am

Originally posted by King Soaker@Aug 18 2004, 09:35 PM
DA,

These "authentic" swords are made from old fashioned ferrous steel so they look like the real thing. Only a fool would believe ancient carbon steel is stronger than modern stainless, or super modern HR 5160 spring steel which is a close cousin of stainless due to it's chromium content. This is the metal used in most modern high quality Katana type swords.

Here is a reference chart:

http://www.admiralsteel.com/products/blades.html

By the way, my Claymore was not made in Pakistan, nor is it made of stainless. But, my cheap 440C stainless broad sword made in Pakistan would do serious damage to any old fashioned ferrous Claymore sword.

Try bending a high carbon hardened ferrous blade a few degrees and see what happens. About the only exception to this rule is Damascus steel. Ever wonder why the hardest drill bits are the easiest to snap?

Razor wrote:
Stainless steel also loses it's edge much faster than carbon steel.


"While it is true that a plain carbon steel knife will take an edge very quickly, it is equally true that a plain carbon steel knife will lose that edge faster than a comparable stainless steel knife. Don't let the folklore fool you: today's high-carbon stainless steel knives really are better than the old-fashioned carbon steel knives, and modern sharpening technologies make them easy to sharpen, too."

http://www.chesapeakeknifeandtool.com/c ... ?E+scstore

This fact is supported by virtually all modern knife makers, and the old-wives-tale that carbon steel holds a better edge was debunked long ago. This is the 21st Century, and quite honestly there is a modern alloy superior to old carbon steel for virtually every, and any application you can name.
You know we are not talking about knifes, right? I don't know why you are talking about knifes if this is a sword steel thread. Swords and knifes are not the same. Swinging a 7 inch stainless steel blade is different than swinging a 40 inch stanless steel blade. Also, all retailers I have listed sell "new" swords. So if stainless steel would be good for swords in battle, they would have used it by now. For swords, you have to use carbon steel in life steel combat. Its not just what say, its what sword manufacturers say. Again, I repeat: swords are not knifes.

Plus, I yet have to see a credible battle sword retailer from you that sells stainless steel swords for battle.
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Post by King Soaker » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:41 am

DA,

You don't seem to understand that the size of the blade does not matter. But, I have made many references to swords, and own a fairly large number of them. I would be happy to compare collections. The bottom line is that the laws of physics, and properties of metallurgy make little or no distinction in the size of a blade. A superior metal in a small blade is still a superior metal in a large blade. The property of the metal does not change with scale. If you are into antique weapons, by all means keep them authentic. One reason you see old ferrous metal in most blades is because stainless, and HR 5160 is more expensive, and much harder to work with. Most of the sword manufacturers that you listed sell display swords made of old fashioned ferrous metals, and high quality stainless, or HR 5160. Take a look at a quality sword like the Spanish Toledo, and you will find they are made of stainless steel!

Look at the display swords, and it says "long carbon steel blade which is hand forged and tempered over hot coals for authenticity. "

We are not talking about authenticity here, we are talking about what type of metal has superior metalurgical strength, and durability in a sword. A sword, or knife made of 420V stainless, or HR 5160 spring steel is as good as it gets, period. I don't see any evidence to the contrary in any of the links you provided.

Joe Walters makes state of the art swords from 5160:

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/chokuto.review.htm
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Post by The dark ANNIHILATOR » Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:22 am

Originally posted by King Soaker@Aug 18 2004, 11:41 PM
DA,

You don't seem to understand that the size of the blade does not matter. But, I have made many references to swords, and own a fairly large number of them. I would be happy to compare collections. The bottom line is that the laws of physics, and properties of metallurgy make little or no distinction in the size of a blade. A superior metal in a small blade is still a superior metal in a large blade. The property of the metal does not change with scale. If you are into antique weapons, by all means keep them authentic. One reason you see old ferrous metal in most blades is because stainless, and HR 5160 is more expensive, and much harder to work with. Most of the sword manufacturers that you listed sell display swords made of old fashioned ferrous metals, and high quality stainless, or HR 5160. Take a look at a quality sword like the Spanish Toledo, and you will find they are made of stainless steel!

Look at the display swords, and it says "long carbon steel blade which is hand forged and tempered over hot coals for authenticity. "

We are not talking about authenticity here, we are talking about what type of metal has superior metalurgical strength, and durability in a sword.  A sword, or knife made of 420V stainless, or HR 5160 spring steel is as good as it gets, period. I don't see any evidence to the contrary in any of the links you provided.

Joe Walters makes state of the art swords from 5160:

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/chokuto.review.htm
*eheem*... 5160 is a carbon steel type. Look at my carbon steel description.

Laws of physics doesn't matter? I do own a stainless steel sword, which I will post a review aswell. The sheer weight of the blade makes it very bad to swing. To even it out, you would need a 5 pound pommel. A large blade that is to heavy for its size can not be superior. Look, if you have a 30 inch stainless steel blade you can not use it in combat. Its to heavy. No one in re-inactments uses stainless steel.

Physics is very relevant in this case, since with a longer blade, the weight and leverage upon contact will create greater stess. Stainless steel is not made for that kind of stress. Its simply not shock absorbant. Again, knifes don't clash, so its ok if they are stainless steel.
here is another carbon versus stainless steel page:
http://www.iebs.8m.com/ss.html
quote from the article:
"Carbon is often added to steel to increase its hardness. Adding as little as 0.5% carbon can make a huge difference in the hardness of the steel. However, the increased hardness comes with a disadvantage -it is much less ductile. Careful control of the heat treatment allows one to control the trade off between hardness and ductility - but if you make a mistake you can end up with a blade that won't hold an edge or one that shatters if you drop it."
I assume you only know the hard-carbon steel that is overheated. Only that carbon steel would be more brittle than stainless steel. If you look at my carbon steel description you will see that there are different carbon steel types. 1050-1060 is soft-medium carbon steel, those still hold their edge better than stainless steel and are also more durable. Anything higher than 1060 has to be differentialy heated, or folded to prevent it from becoming brittle.
The article also ends with:
"In summary, SS is a misnomer (it is neither a steel nor completely stainless). Good SS bonsai tools are expensive because they are difficult to make. I suggest that good quality carbon-steel tools will hold a better edge and last as long or longer than much higher priced SS tools."
So far for universality in steel reviews.
But then again, we are talking about swords, not tools. But if it holds it edge longer, and its more durable when heated correctly, then I can't see why stainless steel would be better for swords. And again, the weight and balance in stainless steel swords is just unreasonable compared to carbon swords. Almost two or three times the weight. Thats just not acceptable from stainless steel swords in combat.



Spanish Toledo swords, or Marto, are state of the art wall hangers. There is nothing wrong with that, but you won't use those in the Renaissance fair. If you have a link of a Toledo sword that is promoted as "Battle Sword", I would like to see it.
I don't see any evidence to the contrary in any of the links you provided.
All the sites I posted, sell "battle/functional/live steel/re-inactment swords". Those site also sell wall hangers. But thats not the point. The swords marked as "battle/functional/live steel/re-inactment swords" are all made of carbon steel.

http://www.barbarianblades.com/ -Its one of the links actually, and I actually emailed the site for info on swords before I did this thread. He explained to me that 5160 is a carbon steel typ which has more chromium than other carbon steels. Its the touhest most shock absorbing one-piece steel out there. And its a carbon steel. You know that spring steel is usually refered to carbon steel. The swords from WINDLASS describe their battle swords as spring steel, and also as carbon steel.

There are display carbon steels, like the Lord of the Rings Collection on darkswordarmoury.com or the really cheap barbarian swords on ebay. But they are rat tail tang, which means that the blade and handle are not 1 piece. But If Im not mistaken, most stainless steel swords are rat tail tang. Most carbon steel blades are full tang.

Again, on the re-iactement swords you can see which metal is for battle. And some of them are fairly non-traditional in production. Yet, they use carbon steel.
Like I said, if you have a "credible" retailer who sells officialy "battle swords" which are stainless steel, then I would like to see it. And I don't mean the nameless stainless steel models, which some sellers try to get ridd of as "battle swords" like this store. I've seen those on ebay, and those are not functional swords. Some are not even full tang.
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Post by superstormer » Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:23 pm

*dumbs down discussion*

I like teh shiney ones!
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Post by Razor » Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:13 pm

Originally posted by King Soaker@Aug 18 2004, 11:41 PM
DA,

You don't seem to understand that the size of the blade does not matter.
That's because the size of the blade does matter. You don't have to worry about a knife blade breaking if it's made of a weaker, heavier form of steel (stainless).

The fact is that a knife fight is much different than a sword fight. Knives are much smaller, so weight and durability are not issues. For bigger blades, durability and weight are much more important than corrosion.

Again, the size of the blade does matter.
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