Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Threads about how water guns work and other miscellaneous water gun technology threads.
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TheTyphoon
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Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by TheTyphoon » Sun May 30, 2010 6:27 pm

OK, I've had an idea of a new type of Soaker technology. PLEASE keep in mind that I have literally next to no knowledge on how water guns work, etc. so have mercy on my soul. :cool:

It's a step up from CPS. The idea came from when I was playing around with a Water Balloon that I kept epic-failing at tieing the knot on it.

Imagine a balloon with thick rubber, so it's able to withstand high pressure. Then imagine it has a very wide neck for a balloon. This balloon would take in water, pressurising it exactly like CPS.

However, this different balloon does not simply release it's pressure when the trigger is pulled. Instead, the trigger is pulled, two pieces of plastic press into the sides of the balloon quite suddenly and the valve is opened up to, so not only do you get the usual CPS pressure, but the added pressure from the plastic pieces compressing the balloon cause the water to increase velocity and power.

You could use this technology on a 40x blaster - or possibly more - and ta-da, you have an ACTUAL Water Shotgun, because the range is likely reduced a little from CPS and the shot time definately decreases because the water is forced out in an instant. But it is "Shotgun Soakage" nevertheless. It's basically like filling a water balloon up quite a bit, not tieing it, and then simply pushing the sides a little and letting the water fully out of the neck.

Discuss? Thanks for reading if you got this far!
My Current Soaker Loadout: CPS 2500, SC 500, 1 x Water Balloon

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martianshark
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by martianshark » Sun May 30, 2010 8:31 pm

It's an okay idea, but wouldn't it be easier to just make a thicker bladder?

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JuchTurtles
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by JuchTurtles » Sun May 30, 2010 11:50 pm

Kind-of difficult to manage, but it could be worth it. I did a mod that made an Artic Blast get 42 feet that had a spring compress the PC as it unloaded it's shot.

However, it would be a lot easier just to layer the CPS tubing because you'd have to add a compression type thing. It would be hard to do.
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C-A_99
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by C-A_99 » Sun May 30, 2010 11:51 pm

What do you use to have the plastic pieces push the bladder in? Also, the plastic pieces must apply force exactly uniformly on the bladder or it will wear out and eventually burst.

If you are using springs for the plastic pushers, it's better to just have a spring chamber with a sealing piston, otherwise you can't get it to seal. Even then, spring based PC's are not popular because they require enourmous strength to hold the spring together and don't apply force in all directions like CPS does.

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zeda.beta
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by zeda.beta » Mon May 31, 2010 3:44 am

Apparently he is talking about a CPS chamber mixed with a spring PC. It is plausible, but the trigger mechanism would have a heavy pull, and it would be fiendishly hard to design. If it works, it would technically give it a stronger blast, but at the same time empty the PC more quickly. It might be possible with a flat PC like Water warriors guns, but otherwise it would compress the chamber unevenly.
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wetmonkey442
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by wetmonkey442 » Mon May 31, 2010 3:55 am

This could work, but keep in mind that any external force on the bladder negates the pressure from the rubber. If you are squeezing a balloon, for example, the power of whatever is inside exiting the balloon is going to come from the external force, and not the contraction of the rubber itself.

Would you design the trigger valve so that it opens simultaneously with the external compression of the bladder?
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martianshark
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by martianshark » Mon May 31, 2010 4:41 am

Using a flat PC for it is a good idea. In fact, you might be able to do a power mod on Hydro Power guns using a little spring thing.

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TheTyphoon
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by TheTyphoon » Mon May 31, 2010 11:57 am

wetmonkey442 wrote: Would you design the trigger valve so that it opens simultaneously with the external compression of the bladder?
Yes, I think that's what I'm getting at! Ha, as I said, I have next to no knowledge on the true workings of even the simplest water pistol, but it was just an idea. Saying that since the normal compression is negated and instead the external compression is used, would it still be enough to create a sizeable shotgun blast?

Also, I had a second idea that I conjured. It's a Pump-Action idea mixed with Elastic. What if you had a spherical, plastic chamber which contains the bladder - but the plastic chamber is completely airtight, once air is in, it can't escape.

So when you pull back the pump, air is forced into that plastic chamber and this squeezes the bladder within because of the greater air pressure in the chamber. At the same time as this, the valve opens and the nozzle is accesable, so the water from the bladder is squeezed out.

The only problems with that idea that I though of was a) how to de-pressurise the plastic chamber after and b) how the bladder is filled with water.
My Current Soaker Loadout: CPS 2500, SC 500, 1 x Water Balloon

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cantab
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by cantab » Mon May 31, 2010 1:51 pm

About the original idea, KISS springs to mind. The only advantage I can see is you can mechanically push back the sprung plates so you don't have to pump against them, reducing the needed pumping force. But you could accomplish the same goal with less complexity by simply using a sprung piston pressure chamber.

The second idea is more sensible. In some ways it is reminiscent of the XPS mod, which involved putting ballons in the air pressure chambers of old XP blasters. You get the advantage of being able to fire in any direction. But I doubt it will work as a pump-action blaster. Air is compressible, so it'll probably just sap power.
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zeda.beta
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by zeda.beta » Mon May 31, 2010 3:51 pm

martianshark wrote:Using a flat PC for it is a good idea. In fact, you might be able to do a power mod on Hydro Power guns using a little spring thing.
Yeah, somebody tried that and it ruptured their pc. (Can't find the link.) But it might be possible with thicker walled rubber as the pc. I am going to try this later this summer.
-Zeda
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C-A_99
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by C-A_99 » Mon May 31, 2010 5:29 pm

If you are relying on rubber PC's, you absolutely cannot have any external force acting on it that would not be uniform and even on the bladder. That is why the WW PC ruptured and why placing a spring(s) and/or piston(s) behind ANY rubber bladder is a bad idea. It has already been gone over many times that external forces that do not exert uniform force (i.e. spread out exactly around the bladder so that the force acting on it is the same in every place in a given time) on a bladder will weaken it and cause it to rupture eventually.

Now, encasing CPS into an airtight case is grey ground. It depends on what you're really trying to achieve. If you want constant pressure, using an airtight case defeats the point and you basically waste a good bladder by turning the whole thing into air pressure. However, using a thin rubber bladder as a means to seperate air from water has been done before and works (it is the XPS mod that Cantab mentioned), but the only benefit is firing angles, at the expense of being able to pre-pump the blaster with extra air.

However, using a large tube with a sealing piston is also a good method for air/water seperated air pressure setups. It is the easiest to do for homemades, but the XPS style of seperating air and water may actually seal more reliably since the sealing points do not move. On the other hand, bladder maintenance may be a concern if air pressure causes it to wear out faster.

The point is, you use one system at a time. Currently the best methods are CPS bladders and the many variations of air pressure setups; it's unlikely that anything better can be invented, as the HydroPower and spring piston PC's are newer PC designs, but they are inferior to the traditional bladder powered CPS and air pressure systems. (They have distinct disadvantages, the main one being that they exert way too much stress on some parts of the gun.) You also can only get as much force out of your blaster as you put into it, meaning that the more powerful a blaster is, the more pumping and pumping force is necessary.

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JuchTurtles
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by JuchTurtles » Mon May 31, 2010 5:31 pm

It was the member blazer modding his blazer.
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Also known as Commander JuchJawsTurtles, commander of the C0BALT TiDE team in The Ocean Volcano Union.
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TheTyphoon
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by TheTyphoon » Mon May 31, 2010 6:02 pm

Well, I suppose this has helped me on the way to understanding all the workings of water weapons anyway!

It's a bit sad to think that there might not be any more advances in water gun tech. Then again, people have always thought that until something new comes out.
My Current Soaker Loadout: CPS 2500, SC 500, 1 x Water Balloon

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zeda.beta
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Re: Brand New Idea - "Elastic Burst Tech."

Post by zeda.beta » Mon May 31, 2010 7:38 pm

JuchTurtles wrote:It was the member blazer modding his blazer.
Oh, yeah. :D

But what if you chose to use technology that would accelerate the shrinking of the bladder, such as a new shape of PC?
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
Quack damn you.

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