The Best Soaker for River Rafting?

Build a homemade water gun or water balloon launcher and tell us about it.
Alt4name
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:05 pm

The Best Soaker for River Rafting?

Post by Alt4name » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:54 pm

I'm new and just came across this awesome site. I'm very impressed with the designs and knowledge transfer in this forum. I just got back from a rafting trip where we were handed our hats in nearly every water fight. I want the best soaker possible. Does anyone have recommendations on the best setup for a raft? Consider you could have other people pumping up the pressure and an unlimited water supply by hanging a hose overboard. Any and all suggestions welcome. Limitations would be no motors and no air compressors.

User avatar
Silence
Posts: 3825
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:01 pm

Post by Silence » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:10 pm

Welcome to SSCentral! We get a lot of river gunners, so you should feel right at home.

The most complete and thus perhaps best design I have seen is this one. It's also currently one of the most recent threads here in this subforum, so I'm surprised you didn't see it.

Though you do have a point--a PoolPumper-type of soaker would be nice. It's just that you'd have to give up linear flow (because of the check vale), although you'd be able to fill without bending down.

Alt4name
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:05 pm

Post by Alt4name » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:20 pm

Thanks for the reply SilentGuy. I did come across the thread for the syringe type soaker. In fact, that's the same type we rented for $3 each while picking up the rafts. Everyone on the river has this type and they work with varied results. I like the simple design but I'm interested in something more dramatic that will truly soak the competition at close range, or hit them from a distance of 60-70ft before their syringe types are even within range. I'm also interested in something that does not require reloading. I know I'm probably asking for a lot but it seems like there should be a better way considering it does not have to carry it's own water and there can be more than one person involved in the firing process. Hmmmm.

User avatar
SSCBen
Posts: 6449
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 1:00 pm

Post by SSCBen » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:53 pm

Welcome to Super Soaker Central!

We're getting a lot more questions about water guns ideal for river rafting! I think it would be a good idea to include a section on our website about it. Too bad I never have done any real river rafting myself. Something I intend to change based on the stories I've heard!

Unless you can bench press 400 pounds or more, syringe type water guns would not get you over 60 feet.

I actually emailed a manufacturer of those style water guns who claimed to get over 60 feet saying that it was impossible and I never got a reply back. Funny stuff really. Exactly what I expected too. I know what it takes to do that and they really are exaggerating a lot on that.

To get over 70 feet you'd need about 1000 pounds of force in the water gun. That's easily possible with air pressure. If you buy a big air tank, a special piston air pressure water gun would be a great design to use.

The problem with getting over 70 feet is that you'll use a lot of water up fast. For that reason it might be a good idea to set your sights a little lower. Reload time will be a big issue due to the appetite for water and the fact that it doesn't automatically reload.

If you have the money, buying a gas powered water pump would be the absolute best idea around. Stick the water inlet into the river, fashion an efficient nozzle design (we can help you with that), load it up on gas and you're good to go. The problem with this is that it's expensive. It'll crush the competition however. You'll have no real limit on power and no reload time.

I've read about people using multiple gas powered water pumps on boats for similar things, but I don't think I've ever heard of it on a raft. You could be the first to do it.

So report back on what you think would be good for you. We can help you on pretty much anything you'll think of. :)

Of, and if you do try something with the water pump idea, let me know. I'd be interested in making a section on that because I'm not sure if too many here have tried water pumps. Would be great for a potential river rafting section too.

Alt4name
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:05 pm

Post by Alt4name » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:27 am

Hey Ben, thanks for the reply. I completely agree that a gas powered water pump would be the way to go. Problem is, i know nothing about motors and keep envisioning a loud, oil leaking, smoke bellowing lawn mower engine. If it were small and fuel efficient I think the motor idea would be ideal.

I would prefer to exhasut all non-motorized options first just to see what can be done.

What about a crank style with handle on either side so two people could be building up pressure at the same time? It could be mounted to the cooler that sits in the middle of the raft. Does that even make sense? :)

User avatar
SSCBen
Posts: 6449
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 1:00 pm

Post by SSCBen » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:31 am

A gas powered pump would probably be loud. I also don't think those types of motors have to meet emisions standards in the US as well. I'll also admit that I never have used one, but once I get the money I'll give one a try.

I'm not sure if they still make manually powered pumps. Older fire hoses before gasoline used steam or animal power. I don't know too much about human powered pumps like this. I doubt a few humans could match the sort of power a gasoline or steam engine has.

The basic "APH" water gun that's described on our website is good for most any use and I suppose you could try that if you're set on completely manual operation. I recommend that for anything from water wars, to cheap pressure washers, to even eliminating local pests. The local pests request actually is quite common. Every few weeks I get an email where someone is removing something like a wasp's nest and needs something with range to reach their target. This wouldn't be the first time I've recommended it for rafting either.

You also could build a specially designed floor-seated water gun that others will pressurize or refill continuously. I'll think about this overnight and get back to you on it. There's several ideas on my mind right now and I'll need some time to think them over.

Alt4name
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:05 pm

Post by Alt4name » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:50 am

Great ideas and thanks again. My mind has been racing all day thinking through different ideas. I agree that the APH is a good starting point and where I am directing my thoughts. I'm leaning away from the gas powered or electric pumps for safety and weight reasons. I've found a bunch of different style pumps that range in price from $10 for one that powers a portable shower up to thousands of dollars. There are solar and battery powered pumps that are completely submersible and compact in size. The volume of water pumped ranges from 30gal/hr on up to 1500/hr. However, that doesnt give me a feel for what kind of pressure they would create, or would that be something I can control using the PVC?

A potentially stupid Q about the APH - couldnt I use the same design listed on the site but simply place the hose connected to the backpack in the river for the water supply? On the same note, couldnt I just extend a hose from the hand pump to a foot pump used for air mattresses or something similar? Remember I'm new to this site and far from a mechanical engineer or physics major so treat me like a kindergartner.

User avatar
joannaardway
Posts: 855
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:04 pm

Post by joannaardway » Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:33 pm

We never treat anyone like a kindergardener, unless they are one (in which case they're too young to be on the forums), or they behave like one.

Yes, feeding the hose into the river is a potential trick with the APH, but it does run risks of drawing unclean water into the pump.

Most solar and battery pumps either pump far less than you need, weigh a tonne, or need a huge array of batteries.

Of course if you had a methanol fuel cell... but that's not really an option, given that they're still being developed.

Many pumps like that can only produce a few psi pressure. You only need about 1.5 psi pressure for each metre you need to pump water up. Most people won't need more than a few metres, so the pumps aren't designed to do more.

Air pumps aren't suitable for the task, due to a different valve arrangement. (An air pump can suck air from anywhere and is designed as such. A pump for liquids has to have an intake hose.)

I was using some very primitive syringe guns only yesterday, and with a few modifications, my twin could get around 50 foot range with them, so they have some potential. (But most people don't have the same muscle mass as he does.)
"Over the hills and far away, she prays he will return one day. As sure as the rivers reach the seas, back in his arms again she'll be." - Over the Hills and far away, Gary Moore

"So many people have come and gone, their faces fade as the years go by. Yet I still recall as I wander on, as clear as the sun in the summer sky" - More than a feeling, Boston

User avatar
Silence
Posts: 3825
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:01 pm

Post by Silence » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:33 am

I'd suggest the APH, and your question about the hose in the river is valid. Actually, that's pretty much what I suggested in the first post--but you'll want a bigger pump than an APH, and you don't need such a large barrel. In addition, you can even skip the trigger valve in addition to the PCs! What I warned about, though, was the limited flow of conventional spring check valves (okay, so I didn't mention spring), so the stream will be relatively underpowered. But since your stream won't be big, that's not a problem. Also, I doubt the turbulence will be too bad...a good nozzle should help.

The nice thing about this design is you don't have to stoop to fill it and also that the pump can face the other way; but traditional Stream Machine-type guns are far simpler. It's your choice.

Alt4name
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:05 pm

Post by Alt4name » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:41 pm

Thanks for the awesome info guys. So I want to start working toward two an ACH where the hose will sit in the water and others can assist in pumping if needed.

Once i've maxed out the ACH idea I will work on modifiying the syringe type to see what results I can get from that. OK, so where do I start?

User avatar
Silence
Posts: 3825
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:01 pm

Post by Silence » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:30 pm

One question first: what do you mean by "ACH"? Are you referring to an APH (with a P instead of a C)?

Here's SSCentral's APH article.

Alt4name
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:05 pm

Post by Alt4name » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:42 pm

Thanks for the correction. Yes, I am referring to the APH...just shows how new I am.

User avatar
Silence
Posts: 3825
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:01 pm

Post by Silence » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:32 am

Uh...no, actually. It just shows that previously you had only been told about the gun and its acronym, but you didn't know that "APH" stands for "Air Pressure Homemade." If we had told you that much, then you would have remembered the difference.

Anyway, if you're unsure of anything or want clarification, feel free to ask! That article is definitely a good starting point, though, and you could also check out the HowStuffWorks article on "Water Blasters." I'll provide a link if you want, but searching for that term will bring up the correct article.

waterzooka
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:57 am

River Rafting Modification - Pics Coming

Post by waterzooka » Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:01 am

Your ideas sparked my imagination, so I put together a modification to convert my standard waterzooka into a river rafting PPP.

I just added a few check valves and misc PVC fittings. Test results were good, however I used 1/2" check valves and 3/4" would be better. The larger check valve is the same size (on the outside), but it would allow for faster refill. Also, the vinyl hose created some problems, but I suspect a larger diameter hose would also help the inlet water flow.

There was a little bit of air at the end of each stroke due to the separation of the inlet and the outlet check valve. However, I have already sketched up plans to bring the water into the "T" handle, through the plunger and out the front of the piston. This way I could remove the "T" attached to the nozzle and place the outlet check valve flush against the end cap.

It would be a cleaner design with the inlet check valve being part of the plunger. I will try to post a diagram soon.

I wasn't sure if anyone has tried these different options and what their opinion is on the extra weight at the tip of the waterzooka or if attaching the inlet hose to the back of the plunger created other issues.

I'm new at posting pics, so I will send them to Ben for posting.

User avatar
SSCBen
Posts: 6449
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 1:00 pm

Post by SSCBen » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:21 pm

Image

There's his new modified design.

This is just like a regular water pump. The problem with the design is that the check valve right before the nozzle can interrupt the stream, reducing range.

I've seen a slightly different design that uses a single check valve to eliminate this problem, but I'm not quite sure if it will work well on larger nozzle sizes. It basically uses a smaller nozzle orifice diameter with larger diameter tubing to make it easier to suck up water instead of air. This works well on smaller nozzles, but it needs to be tested on larger nozzles.

Other than that, it's about time that someone made a homemade water gun that used this design. ;)

Locked