Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Build a homemade water gun or water balloon launcher and tell us about it.
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chinesecheeunit
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Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by chinesecheeunit » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:55 pm

hey
Ok so for all you "pros" out there, you can hate all you want but a noob has to start somewhere right? First i wannt introduce my idea of a CO2 pressured water gun. I know there have been forums already out there that have already thought of this but i wanted to continue/expand/modify on that idea. This idea came into play when me and my friends were gettin tired of goin to designated places and buying amo to go out for paintballin. Where as a co2 "super soaker" will create no mess and ammo is basically free leaving the world as your arena.

I have done little research on this concept and first i needed a confirmation if this idea was possible and it is: http://www.engr.wisc.edu/alumni/perspec ... cle12.html
Then i needed to find a design for this water gun.

The closest and most helpful site I found to build it was the ubersoaker:
http://www.thehalls-in-bfe.com/UberSoak ... oaker.html
Now there a few modifications i would like to add to that concept. One, the ginormouse air tank that held the water. HOLY *&%# that thing is big (thats what she said) so i decide to replace it was a 1.0 air tank for easier portability:
http://www1.bottomdollar.com/p___VIAIR_ ... tank/skd=1
Then there was the 1" ball valve that allowed for refilling on the top. If not completely sealed, it may cause a lost in the psi so i want to replace that with a 1" metal cap.
Finally there is the lame nozzle. wanna make it look tighter if it's something like this:
http://www.ultimatewasher.com/images/ac ... un-kit.jpg
now for all you guys out there i need help on the psi settings and how much it could take, what i need to improve this concept, what wouldnt work, and so on.

Here are some other links that i have found but don't really know what to do with them but could inspire other ppl out there:
http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/cannons/BECC.htm
http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2247&
http://nerfhaven.com/forums/lofiversion ... t8013.html
http://forums.sscentral.org/t774/
http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/ ... /index.asp
http://forums.sscentral.org/t4338/

so please!! help me out and it would much appreciated. thanks

-Eric-
Last edited by chinesecheeunit on Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SSCBen
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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by SSCBen » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:39 am

Welcome to Super Soaker Centra chinesecheeunit! The forums are a dead right now, so I'll try to answer as many of your questions as possible.

Sounds like you've got a pretty good plan so far. The UberSoaker's a good solid base to build off of. I've emailed the builder before and he knows what he's doing. There's a few things I might change though.

CO2 might not seem to be a feasible option in the end. CO2 is used in paintball guns mainly, and paintball guns use a lot less gas than water guns. The large 20 oz. tanks could seem too small. I'd suggest something larger like some of those big HPA tanks I've seen. There's also nitrogen tanks that might be worthwhile. Larger tanks will last you a lot longer. Price-wise, I don't know how much any of these options will cost, so you should compare your options. You also could buy more than one CO2 tank and swap them when you run out. ;)

As for pressure regulation, CO2 tanks usually require a regulator to connect to other things. The regulator lets you set a certain pressure to operate at. You also could use a lower pressure separate air tank and an air compressor, though, in my experience those water guns can get very large.

Consider running your water gun at a lower pressure like 40 PSI. You can get very good power from about 40 PSI, contrary to what some might believe. For comparison, the most powerful manufactured water gun, the CPS 2000, operated at 45 PSI. With a good design you can beat that at lower pressures. That "good design" involves nothing more than a large diameter (3/4 inch and up) piece of tubing leading to a ball valve with endcap nozzles. For maximum performance I would suggest a 1 inch hose that you can order from McMaster-Carr. There's a lot of options there. Let us know if you want help choosing. I bought a tube from there to use in a backpack water gun before and I can't seem to remember which page it was on, so I'll post that later.

The 1 gallon air tank you might find a little too small, but it's all personal preference. 3.8 liters isn't bad by any means, but you might find yourself later wanting more. That's the good thing about homemade water guns though... you can always make another one.

Some of those air tanks are also heavy. Try to get some weight figures. Aluminum tanks will be lighter, but they might have lower pressure ratings. For complete safety, use a tank rated for at least twice the pressure you'll be putting in it and have a safety release valve set for 10 or 20 PSI higher than what you'll operate the water gun at (those can be bought on McMaster-Carr, but I can't remember the part number).

For filling, I would worry more about a cap leaking than a ball valve. I have seen many caps leak, but no ball valves. Ball valves are much more convenient for filling as well.

Nozzle-wise, avoid power washer components. They're expensive and don't perform any better than a large diameter tube with a ball valve and a threaded cap. In fact, they probably work worse due to flow restrictions (the tubing on power washers is thin).

I might not have answered all your questions, so please post back if there's anything else you want to know. I'll have to post back anyway with some McMaster-Carr part numbers to check out.

When you finish your water gun, would you might making an article or something about it so we could post it on our website? I'm trying to accumulate as many homemade water guns as possible on our website to give people an idea of all the possibilities.

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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by Silence » Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:33 pm

Welcome aboard! :cool:

Ben, because these tanks store CO2 as a liquid, the pressure of the gas is constant - the vapor pressure* at that temperature. So a regulator isn't always necessary.

However, while paintball guns, etc. can function with the 1000+ PSI vapor pressure of CO2, I would actually recommend using propane for water guns. Water guns use much lower pressures.

In water guns, we balance both pressure and bore size to get maximum flow. In order to create a water gun that uses CO2 at vapor pressure and that isn't too powerful, you would need to greatly restrict flow. That means you'll need to use a small nozzle or something that would get terrible range.

Propane, however, has a vapor pressure of a comfortable 50 PSI, which is perfect for water guns. You could definitely use that with a large nozzle.

* For those who don't know: vapor pressure is the pressure at which a substance changes from liquid to gas or from gas to liquid. It does vary depending on the temperature.

chinesecheeunit
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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by chinesecheeunit » Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:11 pm

:confused: wow all you guys were great help. but now im stuck between the propane and the nitrogen? I'm not much of a chemist/physicist and that hurts to my advantage as a super soaker builder.

Also how bout instead of having the whole canister pressurized, how bout having a seperate plastic container to carry the water or like a backpack for the water carrier (another taken idea i know) and then just have a aluminum air reservoir thats pressurized by the propane or CO2 (like the supersoaker mechanism).

and also im still confused of not using a regulator SilentGuy cuz then how would i maintain the pressure for how much the reservoir could take?

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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by Silence » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:55 pm

Okay...

You know how substances change from liquid to gas at certain temperatures? For example, water’s boiling point is 100 degrees Celsius or 212 degrees Fahrenheit. However, the boiling point depends on pressure as well.

We generally refer to only the vaporization temperature of substances because pressure is constant – wherever you are, the pressure is about 1 atmosphere or 14.7 PSI. However, the situation is different for hobby guns that use pressurized gas. For these cases, the temperature is constant, and we talk about the vapor pressure of the gas.

"Gas" tanks contain matter in liquid form. At a certain temperature (which depends on how hot it is outside), liquid will turn into gas until the pressure in the system reaches the vapor pressure. An equation called the "ideal gas law" shows that by increasing the amount of gas, the pressure is increased.

So what does this mean? It means, unless regulated, a gas tank will automatically release enough gas to produce constant pressure. The problem is that the pressure may not be suitable. CO2’s vapor pressure at room temperature is about 1000 PSI, while propane’s is about 50 PSI. In other words, if you let a gas tank fill a chamber, there would be enough gas to reach 1000 or 50 PSI, depending on the gas. What’s cool is that the gas tank would still hold the remainder of its contents as liquid until you lower the pressure by firing.

Yes, you could still use a substance like CO2 and regulate its pressure down to 50-100 PSI. But regulators aren’t too cheap and they can definitely restrict flow; they use a small opening that gets closed when there’s enough pressure in your chamber. If you could use a gas that didn’t need a regulator, that would be better.

Google has vapor pressure graphs for various fluids. They’re just pressure vs. temperature graphs; find a temperature and you can determine the vapor pressure. I’m assuming 30 degrees Celsius (slightly above room temperature) for a water war. Here are a few gases' vapor pressures:
CO2 - 1200 PSI
propane - 50 PSI

You can search for information about other gases. Still, make sure the gas and liquid aren't too cold. You may want to ask at a paintball or airsoft forum for more tips about gases.

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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by SSCBen » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:09 am

I knew about vapor pressure, but I didn't know that's what the gas tanks in paintball use. Would you mind writing something about that for the website SilentGuy? That's pretty useful information and propane sounds like a smart idea now because no regulation would be necessary.
Also how bout instead of having the whole canister pressurized, how bout having a seperate plastic container to carry the water or like a backpack for the water carrier (another taken idea i know) and then just have a aluminum air reservoir thats pressurized by the propane or CO2 (like the supersoaker mechanism).
That can't be done unless the water tank is pressurized as well. Anything that involves unpressurized water needs it to be pumped (or poured, etc.) elsewhere to be pressurized. You could make a gun with a pressurized water chamber and an unpressurized water chamber. When water runs out in the pressurized chamber, you can pour more in from the unpressurized chamber. That'd be pretty inconvenient though.

I did a little more research and your best bet would be to get an HPA (high pressure air) tank and a regulator. HPA tanks apparently also are called nitrogen tanks because air is 78% nitrogen anyway, so they are essentially interchangeable. For a little more information, read Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintball_ ... Gas_system

Propane might be dangerous due to the flammability, and I don't think you can find a small tank, but it is available and relatively cheap. I don't know how it would compare to HPA in price, but not requiring a regulator would save some money, so if it's comparable in price you will save money in the long run. I do know that a propane tank cost about $40 new when I worked at a gas station, but the tank was very big.

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Silence
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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by Silence » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:50 am

Sure, I could probably write an article on the use of vapor pressure in hobby guns. Actually though, paintball uses regulators anyway...but I know airsoft, homemade vortex guns (which use an air vortex to shoot a stream of pellets), and perhaps some quality potato cannons do use unregulated gas.

Yes, flammability is certainly a concern. Although I've never heard of exploding canisters, and I'm sure you've used propane tanks on hiking trips, I wouldn't recommend propane to anybody who isn't comfortable with the idea.

High pressure air is definitely a viable, cheap option. The only thing is that you can't store as much fluid in the form of HPA as you can with liquid propane, CO2, etc. Just the fact that those storage systems liquidize the gas means they can compress the substance much more.

chinesecheeunit
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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by chinesecheeunit » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:19 am

ok so i decided to go with an aluminum HPA canister cuz im uncorfortable with nitrogen. My friend has one for his paintball gun. But you guys got any suggestions for how much psi should be in the HPA tank that im going buy. So far my 1.0 gallon air tank's maximum working pressure is 150 psi - if thats any help.

now I'd looked for a ball valve and im gonna get a brass valve off the website you gave me [Ben] and brass valves can hold over 600 psi so containing the pressure is not a problem anymore

so... everytime i open the valve to fill the water... wont all the pressured air just seep out? like im guessing you would have to stop the flow with the regulator, then open the valve to refill.

and also yeah once i build this water gun i'd be happy to write an article for ur site Ben.

And again, i hella appreciate all you guys that are helpin me out on this.

-Eric-

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SSCBen
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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by SSCBen » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:43 pm

ok so i decided to go with an aluminum HPA canister cuz im uncorfortable with nitrogen. My friend has one for his paintball gun. But you guys got any suggestions for how much psi should be in the HPA tank that im going buy. So far my 1.0 gallon air tank's maximum working pressure is 150 psi - if thats any help.
The thing about HPA tanks (which are also called nitrogen as I said--did you mean you are uncomfortable with propane?) is that they're pressurized to 3000 PSI and regulated after that. The 1 gallon air tank couldn't take that pressure, so the regulator slows down the flow and pressure to something manageable like 50 PSI. I've already suggested running your gun at about 40 PSI to save air. You'll last a good long time on 40 PSI with a 3000 PSI HPA tank.
so... everytime i open the valve to fill the water... wont all the pressured air just seep out? like im guessing you would have to stop the flow with the regulator, then open the valve to refill.
If there is any pressure in the water tank, yes, it would leak out. When I made a similar air pressure gun, I added another ball valve to prevent tampering with the regulator. I found it hard to cut off flow completely from the regulator, so the other valve was necessary. Basically, I cut off the air flow from the regulator with a small ball valve. McMaster should sell small 1/4 inch NPT threaded ball valves that will probably work with whatever HPA regulators are out there. I don't know what size pipe those regulators use though, so that's only a guess. I'll do a little more research for you today. If you could post a link to what HPA tank you're considering, that would help a lot. ;)

chinesecheeunit
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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by chinesecheeunit » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:50 pm

Yeah i did mean propane. oopsie :p

Yeah so the air tank im going to use is the VIAIR 1.0 Gallon Air Tank
http://www1.bottomdollar.com/p___VIAIR_ ... tank/skd=1
http://www.viaircorp.com/91014.html
but for a prototye, i'm thinkin about buying the .5 gallon tank just to see if it works and also to save money unless someone can convince me otherwise. I've had bad luck/tendencies with things that not working out for the first time. But DANG... 11 pounds? plus the everything else, idk if this gun is able to be carried.
chinesecheeunit wrote:Also how bout instead of having the whole canister pressurized, how bout having a seperate plastic container to carry the water or like a backpack for the water carrier (another taken idea i know) and then just have a aluminum air reservoir thats pressurized by the propane or CO2 (like the supersoaker mechanism)
An option to avoid this is to use the super soaker concept, again as said above so i have smaller canister pressurized (to reduce the weight) and then i'll just pump the water into the water pressured reservoir. but this is probably gonna lead up to a whole nother design. which is fine for me cuz im not real big on the 20 pound gun lol

Also Im pretty sure the HPA tank has a 1/4" NPT port so I looked at regulators at McMaster-Carr and I'm gonna use the Inline Miniature Air Regulator - Lever Controllered (you can find it if you search "air pressure regulators" page 928 in the catalog) Since the inlet and outlet are both 1/4" then instead of welding a 1" NPT female port on the air tank as said in the ubersoaker, it's going to be 1/4".

Also you said put it as about 40 psi... Range-feet-wise, how far we talkin here? I mean I want these pellets of water to shoot like a paintball gun. I'm not much of a supersoaker modder so if were only talkin 35 feet forget it. haha.

So basically... the materials that i need to make this gun is:
HPA aluminum tank - pressure
regulator - 40 psi
1/4" ball valve - sealing the HPA
air tank - water reservoir
1" ball valve - for filling
Hose nozzle with clamp
and thats all, no?

-Eric-

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SSCBen
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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by SSCBen » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:27 pm

but for a prototye, i'm thinkin about buying the .5 gallon tank just to see if it works and also to save money unless someone can convince me otherwise. I've had bad luck/tendencies with things that not working out for the first time. But DANG... 11 pounds? plus the everything else, idk if this gun is able to be carried.
Yep. That's a problem with a lot of these tanks. They're heavy. You might want to consider a PVC tank. You can hold about a gallon in two feet of 4 inch PVC pipe. You could do the math to find the cubic inches and convert that to liters of gallons, but about 2 to 2.5 feet sounds right. PVC tanks will also be cheaper.
Also Im pretty sure the HPA tank has a 1/4" NPT port so I looked at regulators at McMaster-Carr and I'm gonna use the Inline Miniature Air Regulator - Lever Controllered (you can find it if you search "air pressure regulators" page 928 in the catalog) Since the inlet and outlet are both 1/4" then instead of welding a 1" NPT female port on the air tank as said in the ubersoaker, it's going to be 1/4".
I wouldn't use one of the regulators from McMaster-Carr without asking them first how much pressure can go into the inlet. Ask them on their contact page for the maximum inlet pressure if it's not listed in the table. You don't want to hook up 3000 PSI to something that can't handle it. That can only end bad. From what I know they make special HPA regulators, so look into those if some of the ones on McMaster-Carr can't handle the inlet pressure.

Be sure to check the rating for the 1/4 inch ball valve as well.

As for the inline lever controlled regulators, they're nothing more than a ball valve (I have one), which makes their price definitely too high in my opinion. I'd suggest one of the more serious ones with an outlet pressure gauge like part number 4246K61. I have that regulator and it's much bigger than my inline one, but it works great. Though, the accuracy range given for the inline regulators (8% at worst) doesn't sound too bad, so the inline ones are probably worth trying. Perhaps I've just been overspending.
Also you said put it as about 40 psi... Range-feet-wise, how far we talkin here? I mean I want these pellets of water to shoot like a paintball gun. I'm not much of a supersoaker modder so if were only talkin 35 feet forget it. haha.
In terms of range, you could easily get over 50 feet if not much more. That's why I suggested 40 PSI. 40 PSI seems to be the minimum for really great performance. On a similar water gun I built, I didn't measure range, but I'm quite confident it shot about 65 feet at 60 PSI (Or was it 40 PSI? I don't remember.). What matters most is having wide diameter tubing to get a lot of water flow combined with the right sized nozzle. You can test out a bunch of different nozzles to see which shoots the farthest. The nozzle orifice diameter can make a huge difference.

The CPS 2000, the most powerful Super Soaker made, operated at 45 PSI, so you'll get similar performance to the CPS 2000 if you use similar diameter tubes and nozzles. The CPS 2000 shoots about 50 to 55 feet (some report higher, but they exaggerate). You'll use larger pipes and better nozzles in your project, so you can get better performance than that.

You get diminishing returns at higher pressures. The farthest I have got a water gun to fire was 73 feet at 100 PSI. At 60 PSI the water gun probably shot over 65 feet. At 40 it probably would shoot in the upper 50s or low 60s, with better shot time. At higher pressures, the water shoots out more quickly, so you have less time to shoot.
HPA aluminum tank - pressure
regulator - 40 psi
1/4" ball valve - sealing the HPA
air tank - water reservoir
1" ball valve - for filling
Hose nozzle with clamp
and thats all, no?
Sounds right to me.

chinesecheeunit
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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by chinesecheeunit » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:37 am

In terms of range, you could easily get over 50 feet if not much more. That's why I suggested 40 PSI. 40 PSI seems to be the minimum for really great performance. On a similar water gun I built, I didn't measure range, but I'm quite confident it shot about 65 feet at 60 PSI (Or was it 40 PSI? I don't remember.). What matters most is having wide diameter tubing to get a lot of water flow combined with the right sized nozzle. You can test out a bunch of different nozzles to see which shoots the farthest. The nozzle orifice diameter can make a huge difference.
ehh.... idk... 60 feet? i mean i know thats pretty good for a super soaker but like are we still talking pellets of water? My intentions of this gun arent a stream of water. It just doesnt seem right that you get this huge HPA tank and all it can do is 60...
Now dont get me wrong, you guys could read this as if im a cry baby and whiner but no its just... it didnt even come close my expectations like that of a paintball gun of like 150 feet. Theres probably nothing i can do about it so now im starting to question if i wanna start building this thing.

Ok back on track. so yeah i was looking at the pvc pipes and it looks fine to me but i couldn't really get a good number as of how much psi it can hold. If i take up on using pvc pipes instead of an air tank, i'm mostly likely going to use a 2" pvc pipe thats about 18.38" which is pretty close to a gallon. Doing that will take off a alot of weight than the 11 pounds i have to lug around haha.

Also i'm starting to develop a picture in photoshop to give a basis of what my gun might look like, both airtank and pvc model. Should be up around after x-mas.

Which reminds me, Merry christmas/happy holidays to ya guys, Ben & SilentGuy. Still wanna keep thank you guys for all your help

-Eric-

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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by isoaker_com » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:33 pm

ehh.... idk... 60 feet? i mean i know thats pretty good for a super soaker but like are we still talking pellets of water? My intentions of this gun arent a stream of water. It just doesnt seem right that you get this huge HPA tank and all it can do is 60...
Now don't get me wrong, you guys could read this as if im a cry baby and whiner but no its just... it didn't even come close my expectations like that of a paintball gun of like 150 feet.
First, you've got some cool ideas and have apparently done a fair amount of research on building a water blaster which is great! However, due to the nature of water, you are unlikely to be able to achieve a far firing ball of water simply since water ends up fragmenting into droplets if there isn't enough mass. Thin streams cannot fire far since they get affected by air resistance too much and break apart; thicker streams fire farther since their mass allows it to plow through the air more effectively. If you're only firing a pellet/ball of water, particularly if you're firing it at a fairly good velocity to get the range you desire, that ball will more than likely break apart as it exits the barrel resulting in a mist-type-shot or splatter. Paintballs, Nerf darts, and real projectiles can travel farther using less energy simply since those are solids; it's a whole new ballgame when we're talking about liquids.

Now, it should be possible to create a 70' to perhaps even a 100' range-capable water blaster (I'm thinking of a well laminated fire-hose-type stream), but it would be producing a fairly thick stream to be able to reach that length. How much the stream can be cut could be something that could be experimented with, but paintball-sized bullet of water just won't work in an air-filled, gravity affected environment. For "water bullets", you're likely better off making a water balloon launcher as opposed to a water blaster. WBLs can get ranges in 100s of feet easily.

As an aside, I thought paintballs could go upwards of 100 yards, not feet. I suppose accuracy is lost beyond 150'.

:cool:
Last edited by isoaker_com on Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Co2 WaterGun/Water Paintballgun

Post by SSCBen » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:39 pm

ehh.... idk... 60 feet? i mean i know thats pretty good for a super soaker but like are we still talking pellets of water? My intentions of this gun arent a stream of water. It just doesnt seem right that you get this huge HPA tank and all it can do is 60...
Now dont get me wrong, you guys could read this as if im a cry baby and whiner but no its just... it didnt even come close my expectations like that of a paintball gun of like 150 feet. Theres probably nothing i can do about it so now im starting to question if i wanna start building this thing.
It's just the nature of water guns. If you want to get anything over 100 feet, you'll need a larger water chamber, pipes at least 2 inches in diameter, over 150 PSI coming of the of the air tank, an optimized conical nozzle, etc., and that might not make it past 100 feet. The only thing I've seen that can shoot close is a gas powered water pump. You can get those to shoot 90 feet.

Shooting pellets of water doesn't help performance, in fact, it should hurt it. Drag slows down the stream a lot, but with a solid column of water behind it, the stream itself can help prevent drag. With just a pellet, it doesn't have that column, so range is reduced.

If you want extended range, water balloon launchers might be what you're looking for, but that's a completely different design.

Unless you are a true sniper or something, 60 feet is plenty of range anyway. It's not like most people can accurately shoot something that far away by eye, especially if someone is moving. ;)
Ok back on track. so yeah i was looking at the pvc pipes and it looks fine to me but i couldn't really get a good number as of how much psi it can hold. If i take up on using pvc pipes instead of an air tank, i'm mostly likely going to use a 2" pvc pipe thats about 18.38" which is pretty close to a gallon. Doing that will take off a alot of weight than the 11 pounds i have to lug around haha.
The pressure rating is on the side of the pipe. Typically it's like 220 for 4 inch pipe, and higher for smaller pipes. Go to your local home improvement or hardware store like Home Depot or Lowes. They should have plenty of pressure rated pipe and fittings.

18 inches of 2 inch pipe doesn't hold anywhere near a gallon. I just did the math, and it's slightly less than a liter. You'll need 73.5 inches of 2 inch pipe to hold a gallon. You'd need 32 inches of 3 inch pipe or 18.5 inches of 4 inch pipe. Maybe you meant 4 inch pipe. :p

Post the drawing and we'll tell you how it's looking.
Last edited by SSCBen on Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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