Homemade water guns vs. modded water guns

General water gun discussion.
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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:35 pm

This thread was split from a debate in the moderator's only section. It's a debate about whether a homemade water gun is superior to a modified water gun.

To get a sense of the context of this post, it was started after NiborDude made a comment about how he felt homemade water guns were not very practical.

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Homemade water guns are practical. I'm not quite sure what you guys are doing wrong for the basic APH to not be "battle practical." This probably is a little rude, but I think you guys use that "battle practicality" thing as a buzzword and reason to only use your homemades. Apparently only SM homemades have the elusive "battle practicality" despite the few changes actually made. At least that's the only correlation I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong. :p

Most homemade water guns are far better than stock or even modified water guns. Good luck with your 21K with a 400 mL PC against my more powerful CPS homemade water gun with a 2000 mL PC. If that's not practical, nothing is.
Last edited by SSCBen on Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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wetmonkey442
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Post by wetmonkey442 » Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:39 pm

Although homemade water guns are fun to build and can acheive statistics unlike any stock gun, the truth of the matter is that a 21K will beat an APH if the users have the same experience and fitness and are facing each other on an equally balanced battlefield.

Sorry for the off-topic post, but I'm just replying to another one.

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NiborDude
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Post by NiborDude » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:04 am

Ben wrote:Most homemade water guns are far better than stock or even modified water guns. Good luck with your 21K with a 400 mL PC against my more powerful CPS homemade water gun with a 2000 mL PC. If that's not practical, nothing is.
Stats have nothing to do with it. It's the way homemades are. There's no way to describe it. But yeah lets not have this conversation in this topic.
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Silence
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Post by Silence » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:17 am

NOTE: I didn't respond to NiborDude's first battle practicality comment (most people should know my stand anyway), but I will now, since I'll link it with the topic. We all know that effectiveness of a gun depends on how it's used--and homemades are no exceptions. Their large PCs can provide greater shot time than stock soakers, and you can use their range advantage and soak people before you're in danger. Their disadvantages involve PCs that take a while to pressurize and a few other things, but if you're aware of those problems, you should know what to do (HINT: use tap/pump).

EDIT: Huh, I can't seem to locate the button that allows you to comment on posts. It would be much more convenient and more appropriate than having to use a whole new reply...
Last edited by SSCBen on Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DX
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Post by DX » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:36 am

Homemade water guns are practical. I'm not quite sure what you guys are doing wrong for the basic APH to not be "battle practical." This probably is a little rude, but I think you guys use that "battle practicality" thing as a buzzword and reason to only use your homemades. Apparently only SM homemades have the elusive "battle practicality" despite the few changes actually made. At least that's the only correlation I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong. :p

Most homemade water guns are far better than stock or even modified water guns. Good luck with your 21K with a 400 mL PC against my more powerful CPS homemade water gun with a 2000 mL PC. If that's not practical, nothing is.
Although homemade water guns are fun to build and can acheive statistics unlike any stock gun, the truth of the matter is that a 21K will beat an APH if the users have the same experience and fitness and are facing each other on an equally balanced battlefield.

Hold everything-no need to start up an argument. Here's my response:

We are not blasting other homemades to promote SM homemades. SM homemades are not that battle practical either. It is not "homemade against homemade" at all. We have learned that the Douchenator isn't battle practical. In fact, water balloons themselves are not battle practical.

My personal definition of "Battle Practicality" for a water gun: To be battle practical, a gun/launcher/other has to be able to compete well on the fast-action hardcore 1HK battlefield. It has to be compact, versatile, reload quickly, have fast stream speed, be very durable, and be at least somewhat light. Size to power ratio has to be as high as possible.

In a hardcore battle between two veteran teams on a large and heavily forested battlefield, a 21K would beat any of the current homemade designs. With the exception of capacity, certain mid-size modded guns such as the 10K, 21K, 12K, etc. are the best 1HK weapons of all time. Such high power-size ratios cannot be found in any other type of gun.

400mL against 2000 doesn't matter. I have my own 2000mL pc homemade, and know how easily it can be taken down by a weaker gun. Only kills matter, any way you can get them. That's how an XP 310 can stand against a CPS 2500 and with the right user/tactics, even win decisively.

The battlefield evolves nearly every time we fight. Something almost always changes. In past years, Tech > Tactics. Now however, Tech < Tactics by a long shot. With better tech and tactics than Waterbridge, you don't wonder why the Militia is 4-0-1 over them so far this season.

In a direct engagement, the homemade user will expect victory. However, the 21K user would not give battle in the open. If the homemade user wants victory, they would have to fight in ground of the 21K user's choosing. Places where the 21K will ambush, hide, get in the rear, pop up out of nowhere, etc. Especially with teams, a veteran team will ambush and pincer so effectively that they will butcher the team with the better tech. The homemade user loses the initiative in this situation, and only a lot of lucky shots will get it back. Nowhere is safe for a conventional fighter. There is no such thing as certain victory, nor certain defeat.

Paper stats also have no meaning in a tough, hard-fought war. Only battle stats matter there, and battle stats have to be learned and re-learned. They change, and constantly, whereas paper stats always stay the same unless a gun is modded or altered in some other way. 400mL pc against 2000mL sounds like impending doom on paper, but in battle, that doesn't make much of a difference. And again by "battle" I am referring to hours of reed crashing, ambushing, and manuevering across more than a mile of dense woodland against a veteran and similarly elusive enemy.

I am not contesting homemade superiority on the Soakfest level. Forget that, I would rather give up before that started.

I can back up all of this during the Regional War if you want. A multi-hour war in scorching heat, pouring rain, or some other less-than-ideal battle condition would help even more to highlight this. The reeds have grown taller than I am now, and we have camo painted our best guns. Bring it on! :cool:
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SSCBen
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Post by SSCBen » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:58 am

I'm breaking this off into another thread because it's a good debate.

Answer this for me: what can a 21K do that a homemade water gun can't?

By your definition, homemade water guns can be damn practical. They can be compact, as versatile as you'd like with a lot of nozzles (the 21K has ONE but can have more), can reload as fast as you'd like, fire faster than a 21K, be more durable than a 21K (take their cheap plastic against my PVC), and be as light as you'd like. The size to power ratio would be far higher than that of the 21K.

Now, if I felt like it, I could seriously make the perfect 1HK weapon by your standards. The gun would be minimalistic, compact, and just to be "hardcore," painted camouflage. The nozzle would be medium-small for speed and the water gun would be powered by a thick CPS chamber. That'd be more power than any K-modded water gun in a smaller, lighter, and more durable package. Beat that. :)

I think you also assume that people will be stupid too often. Homemade water gun users aren't stupid. These are the people who think and are serious about water guns and water fighting. I hear enough about how you can beat someone if you use better tactics even with a worse gun, but that's assuming a lot and sounds just plain cocky.

I also am disagreeing with you a lot on the statement that homemade water gun users "would have to fight in ground of the 21K user's choosing." No, they don't. If the homemade user doesn't want to go where the 21K user goes, they don't have to. Sounds to me more like if the 21K user wants to beat the homemade user, they'd have to follow them into the open. If the 21K user runs into the woods and the homemade water gun guy stays behind, while it's counter-productive, it's still a good tactical decision. Homemade water guns also are perfectly capable of performing an ambush, hiding, and whatever else you've mentioned. I'd really like to know why you feel they can't do what the 21K can.

Then again, I don't see how the playing field is different in the woods or the open. Homemade water guns can work fine in the woods. 21Ks can work great in the open. What's the problem?

If you think that you're hardcore enough, why don't you take an Aqua Squirtz up against my homemade water gun? I mean, they're only numbers right? I know you'll beat me because you're that good. :p

That's what I'm saying. Numbers are important. That's why you modified your 2100 to begin with. I use homemade water guns because I want better stats to back up my superior battle plan.

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Post by NiborDude » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:38 am

Doom, you and your silly little homemades are like advanced weaponry. I'll give you that. But I like to think of your homemades as the Paris gun which was used in World War 2. It's great statistics just don't work well in battle.
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Post by ZOCCOZ » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:41 am

I only have K-Modded soakers and no homemades. But if I think about it, I don't see why a modded gun could not be beaten by a Homemade. From what I read, homemades have the unique element of being build in different ways virtualy custom fit to once needs and intention.(That is if you are skillfull enough, which is not the case for me.) There are virtualy no limits. Modded soakers however have limits, (not to take anything away from them of course), like limited PC size and durability. Sure you can use tap shots, but you could do something similar with a blall valve on an APH and still have 1.5 liter more in the PC. After you have done a PC switch and k-mod, thats about it with CPS-Ks. You give an APH a 5 Litre PC and experiemnt with different nozzles abit. You have alraedy a more powerfull tool in output or distance.

Also, to me, battle practicality would mean versatility and the ability to adapt to more than just a specific battle style. Not every 1HK game is the same. Different strategies, different styles. The point is, depending on how you want to build your APH, you should be able to dominate Modded soakers in 1HK. That sort of versatility is what battle practicality is all about.

Since we are using military examples, what would be more battle practical? A Civillian firearm that can be beefed up to a certain limit. Or a military special devision firearm that is planned and build from scratch for multiple various mission scenarios with no limits aslong it still is on the drawing board?
Last edited by ZOCCOZ on Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by joannaardway » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:22 am

I have no idea where this battle practicality idea has come from.

Vertigo is perfectly practical - it has more range, power and capacity than even my 27K. It may be quite heavy (it's copper for crying out loud - metal will be heavy), but nonetheless, when full, find it easier to run with than my 27K, or even an XP 110!

The pump volume/chamber size is small, but sufficent - more pumps doesn't have to be a problem here.

The design isn't that radical, but the only problem I have is that the ball valve has to be opened with a second hand. And even that is fixable.

This is a first homemade, with no idea about practicality, yet it suffers from none of the problems I have seen listed.
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Post by SSCBen » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:37 pm

If you think homemade water guns are like the Paris gun in WWI (not II), then you are completely mistaken. The Schwerer Gustav was used in WWII. The Paris gun was artillery and could only be transported on rails. It also never saw battles - it bombed Paris from a distance. That's completely different and more comparable to water balloon launchers. It also had a load of actual problems, and you can't seem to find a problem with homemade water guns aside from "they don't work in battle," which is your opinion.

No one still has answered this question: what can a 21K do that a homemade water gun can't? I keep getting the impression that you don't think homemade water guns can do fast paced wars, among other things.
I have no idea where this battle practicality idea has come from.
Everyone's been looking for a more balanced and battle-ready weapon from the beginning. This is another restatement of the same goals. ;)

At first, I felt that the whole battle practicality thing was just a ploy to make people choose SM homemades (and modifications) over other ones (the number of times I heard the phrase "battle practical homemades" was what caused this). I think that's unlikely with them feeling that homemade water guns aren't effective in their wars. Then again, I seriously was getting the impression from Duxburian's Tactical Theory article that they felt homemade water guns worked, so this is news to me.

@ZOCCOZ: Good points made. Your final thoughts I do agree with and that's how I see this situation.

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Post by Spinner » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:27 pm

Ben wrote:Everyone's been looking for a more balanced and battle-ready weapon from the beginning. This is another restatement of the same goals. ;)
Well, most people are. I'd say it's true, however, that some would be interested in simply building crazy, impractical homemades for the fun of it - which is fine. I'd favour a crazy, practical homemade though. ;)
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Post by SSCBen » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:40 pm

I agree greatly that building and firing for the heck of it is fun. My Supercannon and eventually to-be-completed Supercannon II are novelties. Lots of power and lots of design thoughts and challenges. Those water guns are not meant to be used in a water fight obviously. Different goals completely.

My argument is that most homemade water guns are practical for all water fights. Yes, they can be impractical as stated above, but usually that's intentional! The standard APH design on our website is a damn good water gun for any use that should not be underestimated. I made my own water gun because I wanted a more balanced, and therefore superior weapon.

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Post by Silence » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:53 pm

Um, so does the argument now appear to be experienced users with weaker soakers versus newbie users with high-tech weaponry? It shouldn't be...we're talking about experienced users with good tech versus experienced users with bad tech. The argument is more about how good homemades are, not how good their users are. On a different note, and possibly more importantly, the argument is about writing articles to get users to become effective and experienced using homemade soakers.
Duxburian wrote:Size to power ratio has to be as high as possible.
Uh, no...size-to-power ratio either has to be low as possible, or the power-to-size ratio has to be as high as possible.
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I started this reply at 9:44 PM last night, but as with my other posts, I often stop and continue later. I just realized that this thread had been moved and that I've missed a lot of discussion, but oh well...

Ben is right--I haven't seen a proper reason to choose commercial (even modded) guns over homemades.

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Post by joannaardway » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:17 pm

Ok, I'm 6' 1" and have powerful muscle structure.

However, even built from copper, and with a design that could have been a little better thought out, Vertigo is only a fraction heavier than a 27K, shoots just as far, is more durable and is roughly the same length.

Thus it is just as managable.

If I had chosen a better check valve configuration, then it would be a bit shorter (maybe 6 inches)

Surely a weapon that is the same size, weight and nearly the same ease of use, but shoots as far/further, has a larger PC, more reliablity and potentally more output than a modified soaker must be more practical!
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Post by ZOCCOZ » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:49 pm

SilentGuy wrote:Um, so does the argument now appear to be experienced users with weaker soakers versus newbie users with high-tech weaponry? It shouldn't be...we're talking about experienced users with good tech versus experienced users with bad tech. The argument is more about how good homemades are, not how good their users are.

Thats always a re-occuring theme. When its a soaker model discussion, it starts to switch to who is the better user. I think its mainly because users don't come with paper stats, so its very subjective and one can not be proven in a relatively objective way to be a good or a bad user. And technicaly everyone thinks of them the best one there is, so objectivity is being thrown out completly.

Personaly, I like paper stats and they are relevant. Because those are generaly universal and usefull to a large group. Stats will mean the same thing to everyone. Subjective experiences don't. If a XP310 was able to beat a CPS2500, then that just means that the user happend to be better with a XP310. But since there are over 5 Billion people on this globe there will be a good chance that there will be one among them who is good enough with a CPS 2500 to beat the previous user who won with a XP310.
To bring the point back to topic, the paper stats are in favor on the APH. personal experiences are just subjective and can not be counted as general rules. Thats why Social Sciences go with statistsics and not with experiences of the individual.
Last edited by ZOCCOZ on Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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